Wilder

Brian: I appreciate your comments but your argument is as alarming as telling someone that they are legally liable to receive a speeding ticket if they drive above the speed limit. The law is there to prevent people from disconnecting their odos and clocking thousands of miles with the explicit intent to misrepresent the car, which would be highly illegal and morally wrong. However, under the circumstances presented above, where the mechanic allegedly disconnected the odo for the purpose of clocking some pleasure miles without the owner's consent, I think disclosure is as relevant as disclosing that you once broke the law by driving 10k mi above the speed limit.

Think about this pragmatically. If my odo breaks while I'm driving the car and I immediately drive back home or to my mechanic's where the car can remain parked until repaired, does that automatically mean that I have to declare my car as "true mileage unknown"? Technically yes, but I think its reasonable to assume that most people would simply do the right thing, get it fixed before clocking unnecessary miles and forget about it. Nothing wrong with that...just as there's nothing wrong with having a heavy foot under responsible conditions.

BEATSPX

Thanks for the overall well-balanced advice (and BS911, thanks for the legal references, much appreciated!) They caused me to pause and to reassess some assumptions I was making, as well as see things from other perspectives, all very helpful.

For those who are wondering, I'm chalking this one up to experience and moving on.

After reading these posts and giving it more thought, the opportunity cost of pursuing this in court, both in terms of monetary value and quality of life, aren't worth it to me.

Although his admission of disconnecting the odometer was recorded (legal in the State of Georgia) and winning the case a slam-dunk, collecting damages from him will be, in all likelihood, problematic.

The statute of limitations on disconnecting an odometer in GA is 2 years, so I still have the opportunity to pursue it if I have to sell it before then (at that point, calculating damages will be easy; price received less FMV of similar car with accurate mileage).

I think Randy came up with 90%+ of the optimal solution to my problem. I will get an affidavit stating the approximate number of miles driven, for what it's worth(?). I suppose he can refuse to do this on the grounds I'll just take the affidavit to the Police and have him thrown in jail (but if I wanted to do that, I already have a recorded confession and two witnesses, so where's the harm in an affidavit?). Unfortunately, a barter solution is to help balance things is problematic as I would only leave my car with him if I had a 24-hr web cam on it and GPS locater with kill switch (which I don't). Actually, would rather not see him again and move on...

Though this is in all likelihood a naive move on my part, I'm going to be upfront with a prospective buyer about what happened. How many times have you bought a used car where someone was honest about what is wrong with it and the story is consistent with an independent PPI??

Sure it will still probably force me to take an economic hit, but I can look myself in the mirror in the morning. And maybe, just maybe, the hit won't be as bad as I am concerned it will be. I'm not planning on selling it, anyhow (although the whole point of this was what happens if I have to sell it for some reason).

A wise man I know (who is from the old school where business is still done on a handshake) is quick to remind me, "What goes around, comes around..." Too bad for that mechanic.

Thanks again. And if anyone wants to read through my rambling thought process on how I came to my decision, see below (though ironically most of it supports the "throw him in jail and sue 'em argument;" I suppose I just grew tired of thinking about it and following through takes a lot more energy..)

Best regards,
John
_________________________________________________________________

The easy thing is to do is pretend it never happened and let the mechanic use every customer's Porsche as his daily driver or for weekend trips (he doesn't have a car - owns a motorcycle - so having a Porsche available when it's raining or going out on a date is nice).

Regarding Louis and the speeding example,there are a number of points at which the analogy simply falls apart. But it has made me think more about this whole thing and I really appreciate and respect his perspective.

First of all, there is no law requiring you to incriminate yourself or to testify, for any reason, that you broke a law (whether it's speeding, having a valet park your Porsche, or otherwise ).

There are, however, Federal and State laws that require you to disclose when you don't know the true mileage of the car you are selling to someone else. The only thing I know for certain is: 1) The mechanic disconnected the odometer; and 2) He drove it at least 80 miles (the distance from his garage to the body shop, owned by a friend of his).

And the mechanic did not disclose he disconnected the odometer, I picked the car up earlier than planned and realized it when driving home. I gave him a couple chances to come clean, none of which he took. I had to threaten to stop payment on his check and the check written his friend at the body shop before he confessed it was him.

Now, although perhaps unlikely, if I sell this car two years and one day after getting it back, that mechanic can report me to the authorities and the statute of limitations on his odometer tampering will have expired.

But for now, although the Fifth Amendment will protect you from self-incrimination, it won't help after admitting on tape you disconnected his odometer (which I did and he now knows this) and admitting it in front of two other people. By the way, tape-recording a conversation is legal in GA:

Quote:

O.C.G.A. § 16-11-66: Interception of wire, oral, or electronic communication by party thereto

Getting back to your speeding example, you used 10 mph above the speed limit as the extent to which the law was broken. Problem is, I don't know if it was 10 mph above the speed limit or 50 mph above the speed limit (although I'm pretty sure if it was a 25mph speed limit, he didn't go over 150mph above it). And I suppose that's why the law doesn't specify how many miles (after reaching the dealership) the car can be driven without the odometer recording mileage before it constitutes "True Mileage Unknown."

And when it comes to this being a criminal act, the law doesn't mention anything about miles, either:
But once again using your example about the odometer breaking, the law doesn't mention anything about an odometer malfunctioning, being defective, or otherwise requiring repair or replacement.

David Ray

Since you've posted here - it's now public knowledge so I wouldn't disclose anything but the truth and report the discrepancies at the time of sell. Everyone participating to this thread is a witness that could be called into court. Sometimes this place is good and sometimes it bites you in the ba__s.

For instance: TheOtherEric: "So the mechanic unplugged the odo for a week and put a few miles on it. So what? Plug it back in; end of story.

Am I missing something?? "

BEATSPX

I thought about making this a "hypothetical," maybe taking another username, etc. but I already made the decision to be forthright and honest about this odometer issue to a prospective buyer.

Pretending this wasn't an issue or trivializing breaking the law was never an option I gave any consideration.

But you make a valid point that I have painted myself into a corner... my only defense is doing so was a conscious decision.

GG33

My question is: How would you or any future buyer, or indeed, any inspector, discover that the cable had been disconnected at some time in the past? Is there a 'tell-tale' paint seal or something?
My view is that you are making a mountain out a mole hill

GG

Davies

GG33 - There is no seal or factory mark. All pre 996 911 odometers are ridiculously easy to disconnect. Just pull out a wire or two and the miles won't rack up (though a Tiptronic won't work correctly when the speedometer is disconnected.) A dealer friend of mine said that when 993s were new, and being leased (with annual mileage limit) that was not unheard of. Records and condition are the only means of really knowing. That, and a general faith in humanity...

95FL993CAB

I would make one suggestion to take some of the sting out of the situation. Have the mechanice reimburse you for the work you paid for before knowing he tampered with the car, along with the signature of the affidavit. I would also have your witnesses sign and notarize a summary of their understanding of the situation so that way, you have both the mechanic's mea culpa and independant eye/ear witnesses to the event. That should help with the honesty part at resale time.
In the end, beyond the PIA from the action of the mechanic, I would not worry to much. I applaud your sense of right and your ethics!
Ron

TheOtherEric

HUGE +1!

If you disclose this 1-week discrepancy to a buyer, he'll more than likely assume you're lying and that it was really disconnected for 1+ years (why else would you "confess" to something so trivial other than to sugar-coat a fraud?). You'll probably take a bit $$ hit for no reason.

Martin S.

you know the mileage when you took the car in...most shops put the mileage on the work order. If not, back track to your last oil change, and do the math. I would look at what I had put into the car in gas and multiply by your typical mpg. That should get you close.

If the guy is reputable (Why would someone go to a shop that wasn't?), I wouldn't think he would take the car out for some super joy ride...of the time when the car was in the shop, how many days was the mechanic at work? I am certain some uncanny way will surface to calculate the mileage. It doesn't sound like a big deal to me as long as the speedometer is back in the car and connected up...it will all work itself out. There are plenty of other things in the world to work one's self up over. How about the stock market...now there is something to fret about!

ed devinney

Maybe for the reduced value case, but the mechanic still needs a big spanking.

"Testing purposes" my ***.

Flying Finn

What about all of those who have had their odometer gear replaced? I'm sure at least some of them drove their car while it was broken? Won't be anything meaningful, I think I drove my car for about 20-30 miles, but in principle you could say the same thing you're saying about your situation (not looking at the stupidity & dishonesty of the mechanic but the actual "damage" done by the few missing miles.

That (broken odo gear) would be a great way to "save" miles but I wanted to replace mine immediately so that I know when to do all maintenance etc. and in general, I don't care how much miles my car has, in what kind of shape it's in matters more.
Like those very low mileage cars you see, if they have, say extra 100k miles on them, you'll notice that by inspecting.

TheOtherEric

You're right about that, because your "damages" are trivial. Say he put 200 miles on the car in 1.5 weeks. Our cars depreciate at around $0.20 per mile, so you're owed $40. Woohoo!!! Even if he took a 2000-mile jaunt to Tijuana, you're only up to $400.

Probably not a wise use of your time.

WHB Porsche

Eric, it's not about the actual mileage hit. It's about the fact that it's impossible to determine. The only person who knows the true mileage is the mechanic, and it's in his best interest not to disclose a true but high number. Also, any number the mechanic gives BEAT cannot be passed on to the potential buyer as fact. Finn KNOWS how many miles he put on his car when the gear broke. He can state that to the buyer. But if the mech tells Beat he put on 160 miles, Beat really has no idea and cannot legally or ethically tell a buyer "the car has the odometer mileage plus 160." The problem is that the true mileage really is unknown. In addition, this is a small community and it's not unlikely that a potential buyer will be a rennlist forum contributor. It's pointless to tell someone to ignore a problem they've already publicized.

BS911

And what is the worst that COULD have happened...

"You guys got nothing to worry about, I'm a professional."

"A professional what?"

BEATSPX

Eric, I know you are smarter than that! If the mechanic took your car, disconnected your odometer, and drove it 2,000 miles (and told you about it) you are required by law to disclose it to a prospective buyer. You think a prospective buyer will only deduct $400? I haven't found a single Court case where the jury awarded only depreciation for damages. Without a doubt, the economic impact on your car for "True Mileage Unknown" is nowhere near $0.20 a mile. And, by the way, not disclosing this is a felony, so factor opportunity cost of not working and sitting in a jail cell into your damages calculation.

Furthermore, if you believe the damages are only that much, please let me know where you live so I can pick up your car. I'll have my 'mechanic' disconnect your odometer, and let him drive it 2,000 miles in exchange for $400! Actually, he's only going to drive it 100 miles, so I'll give you the $20 in advance!

Secondly, Flynn, please refer to my earlier post:For those that believe this is an overreaction, couple points worth making that I realize I hadn't made previously (must have been accidentally been deleted on my part during editing) or I feel worth reiterating:

1) Quality of shifting has deteriorated significantly since I got it back; was perfect for my taste and now is sloppy. I don't know if this is because of his poor repair job or occurred when he was driving my car. In any event, no one in their right mind would take their car back to him to get it fixed.

2) If he was only going to put an inconsequential number of miles on the car, why bother disconnecting the odometer in the first place? Intent can only be ascertained by one's actions; disconnecting my odometer and concealing it doesn't give much credibility to the "I'm just drove around a little and had to pick up groceries" story. And I know a highly reputable mechanic that told me he *never* disconnected an odometer other than for replacement; and while the odo was out, the car didn't move an inch.

3) The car is frequently stalling, which it never did before (recall it's a 95 with LWF *but* with RennSport ECU; I need to check to see if it's still installed or he or someone he let drive it stole it). So now it's essentially inoperable. I'm defining frequently stalling as at almost every stop and approximately once every 2 miles.

4) I used him because I was happy with the work he did at his former employer, he told me the owner of the shop charged me for a short-shift kit that wasn't installed (I recovered damages), and he left to start his own company because he valued his reputation. Yeah, right.

5) For those in the "mountain out of a molehill" camp, please let me know the next time you're out of town for a couple weeks and let this 'mechanic' disconnect your odometer and drive your Porsche. Actually, I know some people who never have driven one and would love to try one out. I mean, so what?? Am I missing something? We can leave what happens with any women they pick up in your car up, how far it was driven, etc., to your imagination.

And finally, as I mentioned before, I'm being forthright about this thing. Whether others' believe pretending it's not illegal, unethical, or immoral is only for them to decide.

What I really need to know is how to reconnect the d@mn odometer... Here's an area I believe I can get some truly worthwhile advice. Please PM me with a reference to a DIY or humor me with a walk-through on the process.

Many thanks,
John