993 build quality
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From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by jmarch
Agreed. Actually the number should be even higher as the Porsche started building 993s in early 94.
I still consider the 993 to be as well built as the 964 because the car consist of mostly the same components under the skin and it is the materials used on todays cars that have changed more than anything.
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From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by mborkow
i'd (sincerely) be interested in reading that article. could you scan it and send it to me or post it?
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Originally Posted by cobalt
It has been a long time since I read the article and have moved since. I will look for it and will definitely post it. I remember finding it very interesting. Porsche made a bold move and apparently the right one, but not an easy task to undertake.
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From: Austin, Texas
Originally Posted by cobalt
There is an article in an old Panorama that is far better at explaining what occurred. I will try to find it. The Japanese change came in late 1994. The factory was shut down for nearly a year retooling for the 993 and the assembly line was thoroughly revamped.The 964 and 993 were never produced at the same time. That is why there are so few 94 models made and many were M718 coded to change the vin from 1993 MY to 1994MY. The number of hours to produce the car went from 120 to 72 according to the article. IIRC this did not include the additional hours needed to finesse problems as stated. A 40 % reduction in time to build the car that is huge. In this time Porsche had to stop their people from putting the "personal touch", So to say into the cars. This is clearly apparent when working on either model. To me it is like a part that was machined on a CNC machine vs one machined by a true master machinist. They are both great quality but the machinist could work wonders that a CNC can never duplicate and the CNC can produce at a rate and quality level that would kill the machinist quality. If you would like the 964 and earlier models are like great music recorded on vinyl and the 993 is the same music recorded on CD. I still miss vinyl although I am more than happy with CD's.
I still consider the 993 to be as well built as the 964 because the car consist of mostly the same components under the skin and it is the materials used on todays cars that have changed more than anything.
I still consider the 993 to be as well built as the 964 because the car consist of mostly the same components under the skin and it is the materials used on todays cars that have changed more than anything.
Your posts have become increasingly imaginative and dramatic about this topic... I would love to read the article that you reference. On my bookshelf in the garage, I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-12 Porsche books, and hundreds of magazines -- Excellence, Panorama, Total 911, Porsche World, GT Purely Porsche, etc. I have read every one of them over the last several years and prior to buying my 993. I have never read good things about the 964 when compared to the 993 in terms of build quality and reliability. The market would seem to reflect this in terms of demand, pricing, etc.
I am not trying to be a jerk, but if you are going to come into our house, how about a little respect or some facts to backup the assertion that our 993s were mass produced by a bunch of Japanese-influenced zombies. We all know about how the Japanese helped improve efficiency at Porsche....Deming, quality circles, etc. I for one dont believe this to be mutually exclusive of a well-built car. Ever looked at the odometer on a Toyota? 200k, 300k, 400k, etc. Most of us think of our 993s as hand-built, but with better technology, better components, better reliability, etc. Maybe we are living in a dream-world...but it's nice here, so please close back the curtains...
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Porsche did implement lean manufacturing techniques, but I don't know when. There is nothing wrong with lean manufacturing - it's a continuous improvement process designed to reduce waste in product and process. The end result is a product built to the required spec for less money and in less time. Practically speaking, I think lean is a bunch of different techniques stuck together - kaizen, JIT, etc. (but it's been a long time...). And Jonathan, totally agree about those Toyotas - My Camry lasted forever and cost me nothing to take care of.
Buuuuuuut anecdotally speaking, if you slam the doors on a 993 OR an 964, you notice they have that 'thunk?' You don't get that on 996s.
Buuuuuuut anecdotally speaking, if you slam the doors on a 993 OR an 964, you notice they have that 'thunk?' You don't get that on 996s.
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From: San Antonio, TX
Originally Posted by black ice
Porsche did implement lean manufacturing techniques, but I don't know when. There is nothing wrong with lean manufacturing - it's a continuous improvement process designed to reduce waste in product and process. The end result is a product built to the required spec for less money and in less time. Practically speaking, I think lean is a bunch of different techniques stuck together - kaizen, JIT, etc. (but it's been a long time...). And Jonathan, totally agree about those Toyotas - My Camry lasted forever and cost me nothing to take care of.
Buuuuuuut anecdotally speaking, if you slam the doors on a 993 OR an 964, you notice they have that 'thunk?' You don't get that on 996s.
Buuuuuuut anecdotally speaking, if you slam the doors on a 993 OR an 964, you notice they have that 'thunk?' You don't get that on 996s.
Like you stated, the frameless window sounds less robust than a framed 911 but the quality of the build of a 996 is not inferior to a 993 or older.
Robustness is one aspect of quality along with fit and finish and other things, but I am concerned with a 993 having the same robustness feeling to it similar to what the classic MB's had and older 911's. A car that can be rebuilt time and time again if needed, a car that is not "disposable".
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Most of us think of our 993s as hand-built, but with better technology, better components, better reliability, etc.
I just love working on this car. It's so well assembled and well thought out. My old Porsche was certainly hand built, but the 993 is light years ahead. The packaging, the hardware, everything. Lots of cute hand assembled anachronisms combined with modern tech. It's a car right at the cusp, right where modern manufacturing techniques were still about improving process and quality, not about sucking out the soul.
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Originally Posted by RallyJon
Ding!
I just love working on this car. It's so well assembled and well thought out. My old Porsche was certainly hand built, but the 993 is light years ahead. The packaging, the hardware, everything. Lots of cute hand assembled anachronisms combined with modern tech. It's a car right at the cusp, right where modern manufacturing techniques were still about improving process and quality, not about sucking out the soul.
I just love working on this car. It's so well assembled and well thought out. My old Porsche was certainly hand built, but the 993 is light years ahead. The packaging, the hardware, everything. Lots of cute hand assembled anachronisms combined with modern tech. It's a car right at the cusp, right where modern manufacturing techniques were still about improving process and quality, not about sucking out the soul.
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From: Nova Scotia
Driving aside, the 993 is a car that grabs your soul: it is almost as enjoyable to work on as to run, due to the execution of engineering design through superior build quality. It can be a challenge to DIY, but that's part of the enjoyment .... there's hardly anything left I haven't taken apart ...
Having said that, IMHO, the pinnacle of hand built quality at Porsche is best reflected in the 928 series: even the early 16 valve cars from '80 on are masterpieces of hand assembly. The 27 year old switches, controls, consul, leatherwork, AC, etc .... of my '80 are unmatched by my 11 year old 993. If one places value in the solid 'ka-chunk' of door closure as an indicator of build quality, here is the reference point.
Now, before I'm excommunicated, let me remind you that the only way anyone is going to get my C4S is to pry it from my cold, dead hands .... it's that good!
Having said that, IMHO, the pinnacle of hand built quality at Porsche is best reflected in the 928 series: even the early 16 valve cars from '80 on are masterpieces of hand assembly. The 27 year old switches, controls, consul, leatherwork, AC, etc .... of my '80 are unmatched by my 11 year old 993. If one places value in the solid 'ka-chunk' of door closure as an indicator of build quality, here is the reference point.
Now, before I'm excommunicated, let me remind you that the only way anyone is going to get my C4S is to pry it from my cold, dead hands .... it's that good!
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Originally Posted by cobalt
There is an article in an old Panorama that is far better at explaining what occurred. I will try to find it. The Japanese change came in late 1994. The factory was shut down for nearly a year retooling for the 993 and the assembly line was thoroughly revamped.The 964 and 993 were never produced at the same time. That is why there are so few 94 models made and many were M718 coded to change the vin from 1993 MY to 1994MY. The number of hours to produce the car went from 120 to 72 according to the article. IIRC this did not include the additional hours needed to finesse problems as stated. A 40 % reduction in time to build the car that is huge. In this time Porsche had to stop their people from putting the "personal touch", So to say into the cars. This is clearly apparent when working on either model. To me it is like a part that was machined on a CNC machine vs one machined by a true master machinist. They are both great quality but the machinist could work wonders that a CNC can never duplicate and the CNC can produce at a rate and quality level that would kill the machinist quality. If you would like the 964 and earlier models are like great music recorded on vinyl and the 993 is the same music recorded on CD. I still miss vinyl although I am more than happy with CD's.
I still consider the 993 to be as well built as the 964 because the car consist of mostly the same components under the skin and it is the materials used on todays cars that have changed more than anything.
I still consider the 993 to be as well built as the 964 because the car consist of mostly the same components under the skin and it is the materials used on todays cars that have changed more than anything.
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It doesn't bother me at all....I would rather have a 40% reduction in time to assembly because of increased automation then a 45% decreased cost to produce because of cheaper parts.