Crownvic

Hey Chris,

This is indeed important to know, as I mentioned above the minor quirks of a car requiring driver sensitivity to a vehicle's character are not a problem for me. Delayed shifting is something I'm used to, and I've even learned to master delayed steering response in roadracing a vehicle never designed for this purpose.

One further detail would however help me out - can a tiptronic become frustrating for a manual shift addict? What is the torque like throughout each gear, these being logically somewhat longer than with a 6-speed? Does one need to shift late in order to keep rpm's high, or is it smoother and more thrusty at lower revs?

Thanks for your most helpful feedback!

Vic

Crownvic

Bill,

Did you change gearing on your manual, or are your driving it stock? One thing making me lean towards a tiptronic is that it is by all reports "adequate" in stock form, while the manual would need expensive mods to become a winner...

Vic

ceboyd

gosh.. I'm not even sure I know how to answer the question about 'can it be frustrating for the manual shift addict'?

Is there anyone you know with an M3 with SMG or a Ferrari with paddle shift you can talk to to ask that question?

I love driving my stick shift daily driver in the street but I can't say I ever felt inferior or less of a thrill on the track with my tip (not sure that helps you though)


as far as the torque and revs.. I never noticed a problem once I got going because it was always up there.. I rarely got out of 3rd though except for in the straights when it went to 4th except for some tracks like Road America where I noticed more of being forced into 4th (because the tiptronic won't let you drive in redline and upshifts for you if you get there... another safety feature IMHO to prevent you from breaking the motor)

Mark in Baltimore

Crownvic,

With all due respect to Chris and other tiptronic owners...for God's sake, man, it's a freakin' Porsche! Get a manual, unless you have a physical handicap or spend 100% of your time in Manhattan-like traffic. Knowing how to shift is part of the art of driving.

Tips are just too uninvolved for me and I'm not a Pcar-like purist (Pcar is a Rennlist member who is intolerant of the gadget-ridden glut of modern Porsches, for those just joining our program and don't know who he is) who eschews ABS, power steering and the like. I've driven 993 tips before and found them to be very slow off of the line compared to the 6 speed. All things being equal, no way will a properly driven tip be faster than a properly driven 6 speed on a track. Chris, you are faster than the other 993 manual drivers because you're a better driver, not because the tip is a better box. I agree that the tip is rev proof and offers a nice margin of safety, but, IMHO, that is not enough of an asset to make me ever want a tip.

Crownvic, you say that you are "fairly tolerant of operator handicaps, and even some due to chassis conception". Does this mean that you may not be that experienced in shifting, heel-and-toeing and double-clutching? Or that the chassis conception issue relates to the rear-engined design of the car and wanting to stay ahead of it by not having to do too much such as shifting?

Bill Verburg

I put a g50/30 tansmission from a 993Cup, it is taller in 1 & 2, shorter in 3-6.

chris walrod

Mine is just above 100K

Crownvic

Hi Mark,

Thanks for joining in with such an opinionated reply. You are right about it being a Porsche, and that shifting is at least as much about driving than goosing the gas. Over in Europe there are even people who also steer.

As per your wondering if I know how to shift, last summer we made our ferry boat in through the narrow and windey 2-laners of Sardinia at a maintained speeds of approximately 160kph - not an impressive speed to German Autobahners but consider the road width of a single US lane through the rocky hills plus the odd triporters and oncoming trucks and you've got quite a ride you wouldn't want to coast through with an automatic.

Regarding city driving, I was mostly hoping for the calming effet of the tiptronic as I am an old warrior used to driving fast in European city streets. Those who saw Claude Lellouche's "Rendez-vous" will know, although he did it in the dead of night, not the same streets when there's traffic. Slaloming with instantaneous pace changes and intensive engine brake use (to free up the feet for clutch and gas) is highly shift dependent. City racing requires intent concentration, looking far in the distance to detect motion with peripheral vision, primary focus on making distant green lights, timing moves and calculation optimal position and trajectory, gumption to make determined moves in a clearly communicated fashion, being swift while remaining courteous toward other drivers (+ pedestrians), sensing other driver's psychology and positioning, avoiding conflict rather than provoking it. And foremost, not doing ANYTHING which could be life threatening to anyone (don't laugh, accidents don't happen by accident). It is essential, no matter what action is taking place, to not lose perspective and at every instant be ready to give way and switch to plan B.

So I do happen to know how to shift a manual. Yet, I also know that when a manual is lousy it can spoil a good car. Case in point, I chose a manual tranny for my 2005 Mustang GT thinking "What? A sports car without a manual?" But although I love to shift, it was probably not the best tranny for that car, due admittedly to the nature of the beast but also because Ford's Auto is possibly a better tranny than the dubious Gertrag 5-speed. I didn't want to make a similar mistake with the Porsche. I find the Stang's transmission and suspension so poorly designed that, despite custom programming the ECU with an SCT Pro Racer Kit, it has only logged 1000 miles since new - such is the destiny of Garage queen:


You mentioned that if Chris makes better times than manual drivers with his Tiptronic, it is because he's a better driver. This stands to prove that once a rider gets to know his steed, much of the task is mental with gesture transfering intent into motion. If a good driver can muster as good a performance out of a tiptronic as from a manual, it means that this tranny is up to the task unless another driver cannot or will not adapt to its character or quirks.

But your words are well heeded. I will consider among my own purchasing considerations that a car with a 6-speed will cost me ten thousand dollars more than the same car with the tiptronic, the later being sold usually $4k less than a manual which would require another $6k of gearbox mods... since from what I've read in the threads at Rennlist, the only way to be happy with a 6-speed is with different gearing? However, in stock form, especially considering the lower price of cars with tips, it might be a smarter move to live anticipating its pusher lever rather than a wiggling a wobbly ratchet?

Cheers,

Vic

jimbo3

I believe gearing on a non-varioram 993 is the same as the varioram 993. Varioram is a torque thing- much better torque in the mid-range than non-varioram. The issue with the US 6 speed gearing is that the ratios are farther apart than their ROW counterparts and one can't maintain engine revs in the desirable power/torque band when upshifting. US Tips attain nearly the same top speed as manuals, so the Tip's 4 speed ratios are even farther apart. However, for your objective of 50% heavy traffic and 50% country road blasts, either one will meet your needs. I wouldn't get too wound up about spending $6000 swapping gears and flywheels for that kind of driving. If you have money to burn and/or doing SERIOUS DE's, then maybe you'd want to consider it. Just my .02

Regards
-Jim

Mark in Baltimore

Vic,

While I would love to have a close ratio gear box, all in the relentless pursuit of perfection through unlimited funds, which I don't have, the stock gear box works pretty well. If your intent is to have the fastest car for street racing or "roadracing", then why not get a supercharger in order to be king of the hill? A shorter gear box will help with acceleration, which is what you want, right? It's debatable whether a supercharger or short box would be "better". I certainly don't know since I haven't driven either one.

I think most of us here can assure you that the 993's G50 tranny is wonderful implement with which to stir gears and whip up a frothy lather of speed, and probably very unlike your Ford experience.

Regarding piloting a tip on the track, what I am saying is that, all things being equal, including the "mental task of gesturing intent into motion", the torque converter is going to introduce a mechanical inefficiency that a manual box will never be plagued with, again, assuming both cars are piloted by apt drivers.

BTW, Chris is a she. Check out the OT section for some proof.

ceboyd

oh crap.. what have I done

Mark in Baltimore

Come on; you love it.

ceboyd

geolab

This is 1000% TRUE, but I would like to elaborate on that IMHO.

The only negative 'marketing' aspect that the tiptronic S gearbox had with the 993 apart from the psychological lack of 5th gear, is that although revolutionary at that time, Porsche did not achieve to limit slip between 1st gear and 2nd gear electronically as they did lately with the 997 turbo tiptronic. The cost of doing so electronically was humongeous.
They adopted the electro-mechanical way.
Thus, as you mentioned, the torque converter is going to lean the shifting from 1st gear to 2nd gear, to avoid the "popping the clutch" effect as in a manual gearbox.
BUT,
in the rest of the gears (2-3-4), upshifting or downshifting, as per several porsche dedicated magazines (of which a 12 page tiptronic article next to me right now)
the tiptronic shifts faster than human manual shifting all along.
993 tests on track - average timing for manual shifting 0.5 seconds - fastest 0.4 seconds.
tiptronic shifting 0.35 seconds 2nd to 3rd - 0.30 seconds 3rd to 4th. ALWAYS

This "torque converter" action between 1st gear and 2nd gear was ' according to magazine articles'
the marketing handicap of the tiptronic S.
If by this action, it did not handicap the 0-60mph of the car, 993 tip sales would have soared high. Thats is the case with the 997 turbo tiptronic today.

As a deduction, the tiptronic's Torque converter is a handicap from 1st to 2nd only, so on track, there isn't much 1st to 2nd shifting I presume.
But comes off course, the question of gears and gear ratios.
This is totally a new discussion.
The gear ratios of the tiptronic ROW and US is as follows.
1st - 2.48
2nd - 1.48
3rd - 1.00
4th - 0.73

Some info about tiptronic S gearbox.
Eletronic engine cutoff is mapped electronically with the gearbox mapping and is not static.

When in MANUAL mode:
From 1st - 2nd gear, tiptronic will force shift at 6200 rpm, emergency engine cutoff 6900rpm
From 2nd - 3rd gear, tiptronic will force shift at 6500 rpm, emergency engine cutoff 7000 rpm
From 3rd - 4th gear, tiptronic will force shift at 6900 rpm, emergency engine cutoff at 7100 rpm.
IN 4th gear, engine electronic cutoff is raised to 7500 rpm (mid red) to achieve 268 Kph top speed.
For all tiptronic owners, this could be clearly seen from one peculiar thing.
When in 4th gear, the RPM needle and the Speedo needle moves EXACTLY the same and are parallel all along the rpm's and speed. 7500rpm is +/- 270kph
This is true in KMH speedo's, haven't checked in mph, but I presume its graded the same.
Tiptronic cars are selling more expensive here in europe, contrary to what was said
in this thread about the US market.
Chris, apart from the excellent skills you have at the track, your gearbox is in for a tiny credit I think.
I would have defenitely purchased your car if I didn't have a similar one.

Crownvic

Hi Geolab,

I see from your avatar that your plates are German - is this to avoid the French radar plague which victimizes Porschists and mere mortals alike, or are you an importer of cars from the Fatherland?

Being from Paris, you ought to know what city racing is like, even if you probably don't do it unless compelled by serious mandates of destiny. While Luc Besson's Taxi was a rallye / racing heritage mock Peugeot, your Porsche could do better yet given the right driver? Unfortunately, due to the politically correct climate lately in France, the latest Taxi 4 is tame by comparison...

By the way, have you ever driven a Tiptronic in Paris traffic? This would be an ideal test, especially at rush hour - what's the verdict?

Regarding the Tiptronic, is seems that it is indeed very fast at shifting, thus has a well engineered shifter mechanism. However, from what Chris mentions about intuitively anticipating shifts to allow for gear change lag - mind you this is real world track experience - it appears that it is the Tiptronics' torque converter which is NOT nearly as quick at applying full torque as its shifter is in changing the ratios.

Funny that in Europe the Tiptronic actually sells for more than the stick. Has the market changed, or have Porsche drivers become more sedates, or has European traffic become so congested that one seldom has a chance to open her up on an open road?

So, opinions seem evenly divided here regarding to use a Tip or not, and this is only talking about roadracing - city traffic seems to compel either a tip or a lead sheathed divers boot on the left foot.

I think I'm going to keep my quest open - and consider equally and without prejudice both manual and tip narrow body 993s.

Either will probably make a fine ride, and getting a strong running problem free high mileage car at a good price will be hard enough a quest without adding further restrictions which are unwarranted.

I thank you guys for steering me away from a wide body which might have understeered me off the road - and showing by your equally convincing opposing argumentation that each of the shift mechanism and gearboxes has its own merits and shortcomings.

Thanks for widening my search possibilities. However, I do seem to prefer the sound of the pre-varioram 1995s which remind me of the older generations of Porsches. The varioram engines sound somewhat smoother, more muffled and with less raucous a scream that reminds me less of the early Porsches I heard racing back in the old days.

Did Porsche also change the exhaust or mufflers when they switched to the Varioram heads, or is it really only a matter of making a different musical tune deep inside the beast?

Vic

ceboyd

There was a change from gillet to I forget on the style of exhaust connections (oval to round).. or round to oval? ...I dunno, I forget..

but the 95 993 has different exhaust connections than the 96-98