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Cam/rocker issue

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Old 12-04-2006, 01:39 AM
  #16  
Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems
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Originally Posted by BrokenE
Steve W

It's intresting to me that the pitting in post # 6 link is on the base circle, not on the tip of the lobe. At the base circle there should be the least amount of friction due to loading (or lack of). The pics posted here by here as well do not seem to be at the very tip of the lobe, where I would expect to see the highest temperature, i.e. hghest loading. Would this not indicate that there is a potential material problem, either compatibility or even manufacturing defect?

I wonder whether this problem is also seen in motor sport applications?
I've seen the same pitting on lobes, flanks, and across the base circle. Porsche OEM valves springs are fairly soft as are most 911 race springs (compared to their pushrod cousins). I see this on street engines as well as some race motors.

Rockwell testing showed no material issues or heat treatment problems and I must say that these ocurrances used to be rare up until a few years ago. Before the chemistry changes to our oils, we only saw such camshaft damage when spray bars were clogged (easily found) or outright material failure (rare).

This whole situation reminds me of when I raced Detroit iron (many years ago) using flat-tappet cams with pretty stiff valve springs. We went through cams & lifters almost every weekend until we began using Kendall GT-1 oil which was the only oil to use ZDDP back then. Instant cure,..............

Fast forward 35-40 years and now its Deja Vu, at least to me.
Old 12-04-2006, 01:42 AM
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chris walrod
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Curious if ZDDP additives are available?
Old 12-04-2006, 01:47 AM
  #18  
jnor10
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If interested, I do have a pair of cams from my 97 993 with about 75k on them. They have been properly stored. If your interested in them, your welcome to PM me.

Jeff
Old 12-04-2006, 02:55 AM
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BrokenE
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OK, did a search on ZDDP, wanted to know what it stood for: http://www.platinumresearch.com/press_release_16.htm

More info than most probably want to know, but according to this article, oils post 2004 were potentially going to have a ZDDP replacement called Techrobond. Did a quick search on that, but found nothing substantive yet to determine if any current oils have that additive. The GF-4 is appanrently an API spec and some oils such as Kendall GT-1 meet it, don't know what that means though: http://www.kendallmotoroil.com/gf4.htm
Old 12-04-2006, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RallyJon
ZDDP--one more factor in favor of heavy duty diesel truck oil.
You have any info how's Motul 300V when it comes to ZDDP?
I'm planning on using that for next oil change (and sending current Mobil 1 to a lab for analysis & then after next oil change, Motul also).
Old 12-04-2006, 10:10 AM
  #21  
RallyJon
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Don't know about the Motul, but the 300v does show large amounts of Moly and Zinc on the oil analysis. I'm using Delvac1 5W40 in the 993.

Here's a quote of a quote from an MG parts guy that seems relevant. From http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...&Number=738118

By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.

About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break in procedures.

This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.

Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.

Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars (Redline). Their response: “We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products”. They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the “new, improved and approved” ones that destroy flat tappet engines! “We just build the best lubricants possible”. Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.

To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”. They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding.

Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off the–shelf oil”.

Next question: Now what do we do?

From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with.

From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles.

From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).

From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!

From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils: “After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem”. “The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation”. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline.

From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.

Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum, is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they produce.

Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us money and time. Be aware that “New and Improved”, or even products we have been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.

For the cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes this may even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria are from General Motors and Redline.
Old 12-04-2006, 11:10 AM
  #22  
Flying Finn
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Thanks. Maybe I'll try Delvac (although this article advices to use either Diesel or 4 stroke motorcucle oils which Motul is).
I remember you've done analysis (at least between Delvac & Mobil 1) and Delvac seemed to be better, correct?
Old 12-04-2006, 11:20 AM
  #23  
RallyJon
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No. For everything the test looks for, the 300V was better than the Delvac1. The Motul really is a monster oil--best base stocks, best additives, etc. The Mobil is just a bit more than half the price of the Motul, though, and supposedly has a useful amount of Group V (Ester) in it, so I'm giving it a try.

I wouldn't use regular Mobil1 in my lawnmower. They've screwed with that oil so many times who knows what's in it anymore.
Old 12-04-2006, 01:32 PM
  #24  
Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems
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A few thoughts,......

1) ZDDP can found in GM's EOS additive and Cam & Lifter Prelube. The former has been around for many many years.

2) Be aware that EPA has also mandated the removal of ZDDP from diesel oils so that will change as diesels are being equipped with cats.

3) The fine gentleman who owns LN Engineering (makers of Nickies) took it upon himself to have a whole bunch of oils tested for their ZDDP content. He put a link to the results on his web site and its worth reading,..... FWIW,.. Mobil 1 ain't bad and a damned sight better than some others.

Bottom line: We use the GM additives for every new engine and some at each oil change. Personally speaking, I'm doing this now for ALL my cars; domestic & European.
Old 12-04-2006, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RallyJon
No. For everything the test looks for, the 300V was better than the Delvac1. The Motul really is a monster oil--best base stocks, best additives, etc. The Mobil is just a bit more than half the price of the Motul, though, and supposedly has a useful amount of Group V (Ester) in it, so I'm giving it a try...
Thanks, I'll be doing Motul next time.
Old 12-04-2006, 04:06 PM
  #26  
JasonAndreas
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Originally Posted by chris walrod
Curious if ZDDP additives are available?
Chris,
If you have access to SAE papers at work read, "How much Zdp is Enough".

I referenced it from, "At our September chapter meeting, there was discussion of a magazine article which purported that new engine oils are short on an additive called ZDDP which, among other things, acts as an anti-wear lubricant. The article contends that ZDDP’s anti-wear properties are needed in older engines in particular, such as the collector cars which many of our Chapter members own. Fortunately, Chapter member Jerry Garfield was also at our meeting, and took a copy of the article back to the GM Tech Center and shared it with Bob Olree, a co-worker and Powertrain engineer. Here is what Bob had to say on the subject:

“In developing the ILSAC GF-4 ( API SM) passenger car engine oil standards, the subject of backwards serviceability was addressed by the ILSAC/OILCommittee. The current standard contains two flat-tappet engine tests, the Sequence IVA and IIIG. The Sequence IVA addresses low temperature cam and follower scuffing and the Sequence IIIG addresses high temperature wear. The engine used in the Sequence IIIG test is converted from the production roller-follower valve train to a flat-tappet valve train. These tests are included to insure that older flat-tappet engines are protected. The ILSAC/OIL Committee and its member companies (OEMs, oil, and additive) went to great lengths to be sure that older engines are protected by these latest oils.

ZDDP is a multi-functional additive. It is first and foremost an anti-oxidant, secondly an anti-scuff, thirdly an anti-wear, and lastly an anti-corrosion additive. The reason that it can be reduced from the peak levels that it once was used at is that ashless anti-oxidants have been developed which can replace it.

Flat tappet camshafts have a tendency to scuff during break-in. ZDDP is very effective in controlling break-in scuff. In my view, EOS should only be used as an assembly aid in rebuilding flat-tappet engines to address this break-in scuffing. Once an engine is broken in, it needs very little ZDDP to protect it. Please see the SAE paper I wrote on this subject. When camshaft scuffing and wear were first encountered in the early 1950s it was discovered that ZDDP, at the level found in current ILSAC GF-4 oils, was very effective in controlling these issues.

As with almost things in this world, a little bit of ZDDP is good but more is not necessarily better.”

The EOS (Engine Oil Supplement) mentioned above is a GM product sold at GM dealers under part number 1052367. It is a pre-lube for use when replacing camshafts, lifters, some rocker arms, etc. In the GM parts catalog there is a Precaution: Not recommended for use as an additive to engine oil.
"
Old 12-04-2006, 04:16 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
Chris,
If you have access to SAE papers at work read, "How much Zdp is Enough".

[/i]"
I do have access and will look it up. Thanks!
Old 12-04-2006, 06:40 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by chris walrod
Curious if ZDDP additives are available?
Just bought Chevy/AC Delco EOS today, in stock at the local dealership. Guy there said they sell quite a bit "for cars that need it". Whatever that means. Half liter for $8.50 Canadian.
Old 12-08-2006, 03:40 PM
  #29  
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The results from my oil tests can be found here. Some of the latest results aren't posted yet, but it would seem that Mobil 1 0w40 has the same ZDDP levels as their 15w50, around 1200 ppm of Zn and P respectively. Raising the levels above the 1200-1400 ppm level would seem to be un-necessary and may actually cause premature catalytic converter failure:

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

A basic recipe for adding GM EOS is as follows:

2/3 fl. oz. per qt to raise up the Zn and P by +100ppm
Old 12-08-2006, 04:11 PM
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Thx Charles, good info.


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