an open apology
11-06-2006, 11:26 AM
#16
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
A kinder and gentler 993 board? I think 99% of the time it’s already kind and gentle.
In the spirit of what Phil started with this thread, and what Joanne requested, I will be ignoring Alan once I’ve finished this.
I will not comment on any of his future posts, or any of his activities.
But in order to walk away, I need to I rectify something first.
Some of you also frequent the chatroom Alan started. Some of you have likely seen this post by Alan from a couple days ago.
For you I want to state what is reality.
And for the rest of you I’m very sorry, but I can’t leave these words hanging out there in Cyberspace. I trust you’ll understand why.
This is what Alan said:
"And, I know some of you like that idiot Mike, but I got new for you, he is a frustrated, old duncile, that has nothing better in his life. Drummed out of the ad business as the last old white fossil guy in a multi cultural agency). Like old newspapers that nobody wants... shipped off to Whyoming to graze in the pasture with all the other glue factory candidates
I don't dislike many people, but I really don't' like him. Too bad it was Ray Calvo instead of Fat Boy."
This is reality.
Alan and I are close to the same age.
In the four years I led the multicultural agency, the American Association of Advertising Agencies honored us with the “Campaign of the Year Award” one year, and named us “Agency of the Year” another year.
I was not drummed out of the ad business. When the agency founder was retiring, I was asked to join the rest of the management team in buying him out. I chose instead to retire as well, while I was still young enough to play a lot.
I can afford to live anywhere I want. I chose to live in what I think is the most beautiful valley in America, Jackson Hole. I also keep a home in Chicago.
Finally, may Ray Calvo rest in peace.
I’m now on full ignore mod. I’m done.
I hope this helps eliminate the 1%.
In the spirit of what Phil started with this thread, and what Joanne requested, I will be ignoring Alan once I’ve finished this.
I will not comment on any of his future posts, or any of his activities.
But in order to walk away, I need to I rectify something first.
Some of you also frequent the chatroom Alan started. Some of you have likely seen this post by Alan from a couple days ago.
For you I want to state what is reality.
And for the rest of you I’m very sorry, but I can’t leave these words hanging out there in Cyberspace. I trust you’ll understand why.
This is what Alan said:
"And, I know some of you like that idiot Mike, but I got new for you, he is a frustrated, old duncile, that has nothing better in his life. Drummed out of the ad business as the last old white fossil guy in a multi cultural agency). Like old newspapers that nobody wants... shipped off to Whyoming to graze in the pasture with all the other glue factory candidates
I don't dislike many people, but I really don't' like him. Too bad it was Ray Calvo instead of Fat Boy."
This is reality.
Alan and I are close to the same age.
In the four years I led the multicultural agency, the American Association of Advertising Agencies honored us with the “Campaign of the Year Award” one year, and named us “Agency of the Year” another year.
I was not drummed out of the ad business. When the agency founder was retiring, I was asked to join the rest of the management team in buying him out. I chose instead to retire as well, while I was still young enough to play a lot.
I can afford to live anywhere I want. I chose to live in what I think is the most beautiful valley in America, Jackson Hole. I also keep a home in Chicago.
Finally, may Ray Calvo rest in peace.
I’m now on full ignore mod. I’m done.
I hope this helps eliminate the 1%.
11-06-2006, 11:56 AM
#17
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Mark,
I agree it is crappy, very crappy as a matter of fact. But that comment should be placed on the one who wrote those things, Alan, not the one who defended it, Mike. For him to suggest that Mike would be better off dead instead of Ray was way out of line.
I apologize to the board as well for making an issue of something that the board's owner is not concerned with (alan advertising his business).
I agree it is crappy, very crappy as a matter of fact. But that comment should be placed on the one who wrote those things, Alan, not the one who defended it, Mike. For him to suggest that Mike would be better off dead instead of Ray was way out of line.
I apologize to the board as well for making an issue of something that the board's owner is not concerned with (alan advertising his business).
11-06-2006, 12:42 PM
#18
Banned
I was not going to reply to this thread either – but based on the e-mail, PMs and posts – I will… Please read this note – and think about what I’m saying, and maybe, you can appreciate my position in all this as well…
First – I *do not* view Mike’s post as a “hi-jack”. In fact, when I read it – I was taken aback more than many realize. I do *not* care where that post was posted, as it is – indeed, on a Forum. That it was posted at all – here, there – or *anywhere*, for that matter, still does not negate the fact it was posted at all, about a Rennlister who has done more than most in making Rennlist what it has become…
To that point specifically, I hold in high regard Mike, Fill, Greg and many others – who support Rennlist and have done so over the nearly nine years of it’s existence. Am I a little “biased” towards these folks? Probably – as they’ve been “right there” as this site has grown from a few hundred users to now, over 120,000 registered across Rennlist altogether. And they are “still here” – and if I were to “do” Rennlist all over, I would want them right there again, helping me to help all of you grow it into the International community Rennlist represents today.
As for Alan and my thoughts about his artwork and making Avatars for folks – if the truth were known, there are several talented folks on Rennlist, who are Members – who also do the same thing. Yes, I allow it, as frankly – some of us had to repeat kindergarten as our artistic ability was “off the charts”. Personally – I can’t draw with an erasable Crayola. Therefore – if folks want to pay or ask someone to make an Avatar for them, and they are kind enough to do it – that’s fine with me. In my view – it’s no different than a Rennlist Member selling or donating their own stuff on Rennlist – and Alan’s artwork and the artwork from the other “artists” is indeed “their own work”.
However, and for the record – what I *do* have a problem with is a person – any person – using Rennlist to promote their own site. It is no different then if I, as a site owner - went to another Forum and solicited users/members from that site, either publicly or using their PM systems. I don’t do it, I never have done it – nor will I condone it *ever* being done on Rennlist.
As fair warning – if it is happening – it will immediately stop, as will using Rennlisters names (without them even knowing it???) in that SPAM to attract any other Rennlist users is simply – unethical and nonsensical.
To that point - it’s interesting, as Rennlist does “cross sponsor” another Forum - Speedbrigade.com. We – Speedbrigade and I, decided to do that as we both realize we offer different things. As well, Loren with Renntech.org, Matt with P-caronline.com and others are equally promoted. They “took the high road” and I respect them for how they launched and promoted their sites on Rennlist. It was done as a “cooperative” effort, rather than SPAMMING Rennlisters in public or private.
Ergo, the illustrative difference on “how to do it” versus other approaches – at least from my perspective.
To Fill, Mike, Greg and all of the “old timers” on Rennlist – thank you… I couldn’t/wouldn’t have done Rennlist without you and your support through the years is probably more appreciated than you know…. But, you probably knew that already without me posting it…
To the “newer” folks – welcome and THANK YOU as well..!
Rennlist is a pervasive set of values, ethics and “community spirits”. We may not always see “eye to eye” on many issues, but at the end of the day – we’d have no problem buying each other a cold beer and laughing a bit at ourselves.
And that’s what Rennlist is all about as well….
Fill – thanks for the post/thread…
John D.
First – I *do not* view Mike’s post as a “hi-jack”. In fact, when I read it – I was taken aback more than many realize. I do *not* care where that post was posted, as it is – indeed, on a Forum. That it was posted at all – here, there – or *anywhere*, for that matter, still does not negate the fact it was posted at all, about a Rennlister who has done more than most in making Rennlist what it has become…
To that point specifically, I hold in high regard Mike, Fill, Greg and many others – who support Rennlist and have done so over the nearly nine years of it’s existence. Am I a little “biased” towards these folks? Probably – as they’ve been “right there” as this site has grown from a few hundred users to now, over 120,000 registered across Rennlist altogether. And they are “still here” – and if I were to “do” Rennlist all over, I would want them right there again, helping me to help all of you grow it into the International community Rennlist represents today.
As for Alan and my thoughts about his artwork and making Avatars for folks – if the truth were known, there are several talented folks on Rennlist, who are Members – who also do the same thing. Yes, I allow it, as frankly – some of us had to repeat kindergarten as our artistic ability was “off the charts”. Personally – I can’t draw with an erasable Crayola. Therefore – if folks want to pay or ask someone to make an Avatar for them, and they are kind enough to do it – that’s fine with me. In my view – it’s no different than a Rennlist Member selling or donating their own stuff on Rennlist – and Alan’s artwork and the artwork from the other “artists” is indeed “their own work”.
However, and for the record – what I *do* have a problem with is a person – any person – using Rennlist to promote their own site. It is no different then if I, as a site owner - went to another Forum and solicited users/members from that site, either publicly or using their PM systems. I don’t do it, I never have done it – nor will I condone it *ever* being done on Rennlist.
As fair warning – if it is happening – it will immediately stop, as will using Rennlisters names (without them even knowing it???) in that SPAM to attract any other Rennlist users is simply – unethical and nonsensical.
To that point - it’s interesting, as Rennlist does “cross sponsor” another Forum - Speedbrigade.com. We – Speedbrigade and I, decided to do that as we both realize we offer different things. As well, Loren with Renntech.org, Matt with P-caronline.com and others are equally promoted. They “took the high road” and I respect them for how they launched and promoted their sites on Rennlist. It was done as a “cooperative” effort, rather than SPAMMING Rennlisters in public or private.
Ergo, the illustrative difference on “how to do it” versus other approaches – at least from my perspective.
To Fill, Mike, Greg and all of the “old timers” on Rennlist – thank you… I couldn’t/wouldn’t have done Rennlist without you and your support through the years is probably more appreciated than you know…. But, you probably knew that already without me posting it…
To the “newer” folks – welcome and THANK YOU as well..!
Rennlist is a pervasive set of values, ethics and “community spirits”. We may not always see “eye to eye” on many issues, but at the end of the day – we’d have no problem buying each other a cold beer and laughing a bit at ourselves.
And that’s what Rennlist is all about as well….
Fill – thanks for the post/thread…
John D.
11-06-2006, 01:07 PM
#19
Phlat Black Guru
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WOW,
I go out for a morning drove in "point and go"
and all this transpires.
Here are my thoughts.
First I do not think Mike hijacked the thread. I am glad he and Alan are
buring the hatchett
second I for one am glad all the dirty laundry is out. RL will be a much kinder place.
In order to move forward, you must leave the past.
Peace out.
ps
I'm not going anywhere
I go out for a morning drove in "point and go"
and all this transpires.
Here are my thoughts.
First I do not think Mike hijacked the thread. I am glad he and Alan are
buring the hatchett
second I for one am glad all the dirty laundry is out. RL will be a much kinder place.
In order to move forward, you must leave the past.
Peace out.
ps
I'm not going anywhere
11-06-2006, 01:25 PM
#20
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I just think this is further proof 993 owners are *********?
Fill sold his 993, got a 996 GT3 and now all of a sudden he's a nice person!
Cheers everyone, Rennlist is a great place!
Fill sold his 993, got a 996 GT3 and now all of a sudden he's a nice person!
Cheers everyone, Rennlist is a great place!
11-06-2006, 01:38 PM
#21
Drifting
Originally Posted by Flying Finn
I just think this is further proof 993 owners are *********?
Fill sold his 993, got a 996 GT3 and now all of a sudden he's a nice person!
Cheers everyone, Rennlist is a great place!
Fill sold his 993, got a 996 GT3 and now all of a sudden he's a nice person!
Cheers everyone, Rennlist is a great place!
ZP44
PS: And I thought I stirred s**t up here..............
11-06-2006, 01:51 PM
#22
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Sorry, can't hold these thoughts back any longer.
Fill - I applaud your intention, and your gracious act of apology.
Mike in Chi - Sir, I consider you classless - you are on my ignore list
Greg - you too, Sir, are in the same category.
JohnD - please explain the "ethics" you mention? Need I quote the Rennlist Charter back to you?
4. Rennlist mailing lists and Forums will at all times be open to free discussion about Porsche and other automobiles, assuming the discussion is related to the particular list's topic and is not intentionally inflammatory, fraudulent, libelous, sexual, defamatory, racist, sexually defamatory, or demeaning. At no time will the list administrator(s) attempt to set editorial policy, except as noted above or in Section (5).
5. The list administrator(s) reserve the right to unsubscribe and ban members who act in an intentionally inflammatory, fraudulent, libelous, defamatory, racist or demeaning manner, or in a manner inconsistent with this charter, using any Rennlist system or message communication technology. Further, no private communications can be posted publicly, without the permission of the party that send you that private e-mail/message, as these are typically used to incite Flame wars. It is not our intent to stifle communications, but to insure that free and open communications can take place.
6. In keeping with Copyright law, Rennlist considers that the content of messages posted to any of the lists will remain the copyrighted material of its author, as the "original author", unless the author specifically assigns copyright otherwise. Rennlist is considered a "forwarder" or "publisher", and the combined "list/site messages" to be considered as "archives", protected under Rennlist Copyright. Posts containing material which is protected under copyright, which a person does not have express permission to use, resell, distribute or otherwise make available are grounds for immediate termination of that user.
For everyone else, understand there is a lot more detail that is probably water under the bridge.
However, there is always the need to understand ALL the facts, and not rely on a one-sided argument or statement.
Yes, Alan runs a PRIVATE forum. It started because of a previous run in on Rennlist about photographs from a "mini-rumble"....
Yes, Alan has created avatar works for people.... though JohnD's implication that people have "paid" for this is, I believe, way off the mark....
I also know that he has said he will NOT post to this site again, so you will probably not see his reponse.
The phrase "damned if you do, Damned if you don't" springs to mind.
However,believe me when he is truly sorry of the comments made and has made a statement (on that PRIVATE forum) that he wishes he could take back those words.
I'm not rooting for anyone here. I believe petty silliness to be just that - Silly.
I believe we are all adults here, and should behave as such. Personal attacks have NO place on this forum, nor anywhere for that matter.
Life is short - Enjoy it in good health - especially behind the wheel of the vehicle you enjoy!
Clive.
Fill - I applaud your intention, and your gracious act of apology.
Mike in Chi - Sir, I consider you classless - you are on my ignore list
Greg - you too, Sir, are in the same category.
JohnD - please explain the "ethics" you mention? Need I quote the Rennlist Charter back to you?
4. Rennlist mailing lists and Forums will at all times be open to free discussion about Porsche and other automobiles, assuming the discussion is related to the particular list's topic and is not intentionally inflammatory, fraudulent, libelous, sexual, defamatory, racist, sexually defamatory, or demeaning. At no time will the list administrator(s) attempt to set editorial policy, except as noted above or in Section (5).
5. The list administrator(s) reserve the right to unsubscribe and ban members who act in an intentionally inflammatory, fraudulent, libelous, defamatory, racist or demeaning manner, or in a manner inconsistent with this charter, using any Rennlist system or message communication technology. Further, no private communications can be posted publicly, without the permission of the party that send you that private e-mail/message, as these are typically used to incite Flame wars. It is not our intent to stifle communications, but to insure that free and open communications can take place.
6. In keeping with Copyright law, Rennlist considers that the content of messages posted to any of the lists will remain the copyrighted material of its author, as the "original author", unless the author specifically assigns copyright otherwise. Rennlist is considered a "forwarder" or "publisher", and the combined "list/site messages" to be considered as "archives", protected under Rennlist Copyright. Posts containing material which is protected under copyright, which a person does not have express permission to use, resell, distribute or otherwise make available are grounds for immediate termination of that user.
For everyone else, understand there is a lot more detail that is probably water under the bridge.
However, there is always the need to understand ALL the facts, and not rely on a one-sided argument or statement.
Yes, Alan runs a PRIVATE forum. It started because of a previous run in on Rennlist about photographs from a "mini-rumble"....
Yes, Alan has created avatar works for people.... though JohnD's implication that people have "paid" for this is, I believe, way off the mark....
I also know that he has said he will NOT post to this site again, so you will probably not see his reponse.
The phrase "damned if you do, Damned if you don't" springs to mind.
However,believe me when he is truly sorry of the comments made and has made a statement (on that PRIVATE forum) that he wishes he could take back those words.
I'm not rooting for anyone here. I believe petty silliness to be just that - Silly.
I believe we are all adults here, and should behave as such. Personal attacks have NO place on this forum, nor anywhere for that matter.
Life is short - Enjoy it in good health - especially behind the wheel of the vehicle you enjoy!
Clive.
11-06-2006, 01:57 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Clive,
Amen to that. The odd part is that if any/all of these "antogonists" were to meet and sit down and have a beer, they would find they could become good friends. Its way too easy on web boards for words to become conflagarations. Its a bit like road rage... the anonimity promotes bad manners.
I would suggest that JoAnne deal a spanking to all these bad boys. Please... may I join them?
Amen to that. The odd part is that if any/all of these "antogonists" were to meet and sit down and have a beer, they would find they could become good friends. Its way too easy on web boards for words to become conflagarations. Its a bit like road rage... the anonimity promotes bad manners.
I would suggest that JoAnne deal a spanking to all these bad boys. Please... may I join them?
11-06-2006, 02:36 PM
#24
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Sorry Steve...
This is my last post on the 993 board.
I like when my friends all get along, they don't, and they probably never will. Because lets face it, this is a big world and we will never ever be able to get everyone in one place for a beer now will we?
I'm gone. No more spankings from me.
I do not like one sided story telling and one sided endings.
I get really upset about all this **** because Rennlist WAS my connection to all the Porsche stuff that I LOVE so much. As long as I'm stuck in this hole known as R Can Saw this is pretty much where I've gone to get my Porsche fix. Oh well.
It's been fun... to a point....
JoAnne
This is my last post on the 993 board.
I like when my friends all get along, they don't, and they probably never will. Because lets face it, this is a big world and we will never ever be able to get everyone in one place for a beer now will we?
I'm gone. No more spankings from me.
I do not like one sided story telling and one sided endings.
I get really upset about all this **** because Rennlist WAS my connection to all the Porsche stuff that I LOVE so much. As long as I'm stuck in this hole known as R Can Saw this is pretty much where I've gone to get my Porsche fix. Oh well.
It's been fun... to a point....
JoAnne
11-06-2006, 02:47 PM
#26
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This seems to happen every couple of years and i always miss what all the fuss was about. Does alot go on in PM's that most never see? Am I just way out of the loop?
11-06-2006, 02:49 PM
#27
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by John H
This seems to happen every couple of years and i always miss what all the fuss was about. Does alot go on in PM's that most never see? Am I just way out of the loop?
11-06-2006, 02:54 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
I wasn't going to respond either...
And I had already removed my "hey, isn't this off the topic of the original thread and therefore a hi-jack" post.
I guess this is one of those times when I just don't know all of the crap behind this therefore it really is on topic. Fill's post was a noble one, Mike's appeared to me to be way off the mark. Again, I guess I am just ignorant. Ah, the bliss that is ignorance!
So, the reason for my post. I gotta say: It sure seems like there are a couple of "classes" here. And I now know my place. I am "new" here and subject to different rules than some.
Why do I think that is the case? Well, I am pretty sure that if I had posted something like what MikeinChi did I would have been given a hiatus. I've seen others get the ax for that kind of behavior.
At least I know where I stand.
I also realize that this post may make me a target to some... so I will be keeping my head low and avoiding controversy. I truly value the people here and the experience they bring to the forum. There are some really nice folks here. It's just a bit different than I had thought.
Now, off to do something more wothwhile!
EDIT: I just got a PM reply from JohnD that gives me hope (just as I posted this). I'll leave the above for posterity and go forward feeling a bit better.
And I had already removed my "hey, isn't this off the topic of the original thread and therefore a hi-jack" post.
I guess this is one of those times when I just don't know all of the crap behind this therefore it really is on topic. Fill's post was a noble one, Mike's appeared to me to be way off the mark. Again, I guess I am just ignorant. Ah, the bliss that is ignorance!
So, the reason for my post. I gotta say: It sure seems like there are a couple of "classes" here. And I now know my place. I am "new" here and subject to different rules than some.
Why do I think that is the case? Well, I am pretty sure that if I had posted something like what MikeinChi did I would have been given a hiatus. I've seen others get the ax for that kind of behavior.
At least I know where I stand.
I also realize that this post may make me a target to some... so I will be keeping my head low and avoiding controversy. I truly value the people here and the experience they bring to the forum. There are some really nice folks here. It's just a bit different than I had thought.
Now, off to do something more wothwhile!
EDIT: I just got a PM reply from JohnD that gives me hope (just as I posted this). I'll leave the above for posterity and go forward feeling a bit better.
