pcar964

Unforunately it's not a matter of ordering a "stripped down" model to avoid the electronics problems with new cars - EVERYTHING in the cars these days is controlled by electronics, even the damn gas pedal! With these new cars, Cayman included, if you take away the electronic gadgets, there's really not much left because that's what they spend their time on research and development.

andrew911

I'd like to just add, that for all my ranting I feel my '00 540 is a great car. Every time I take it on a long highway drive (which I had to to yesterday) I can't help but think what a great solid riding car it is, great brakes, great handling, and excellent torque with the V8. That said, the BMW inline 6 is the best engine they have for reliatbility and longevity. My V8 has been reliable except for the water pump that went, but I'm assuming if I keep the car to say 120-150K miles it would be a lot more to maintain than the I6. I paid extra for the car and will pay extra in maintence for the power...

BUT, on topic of this thread, I'm still not happy about the cheapening of the car relative to the earlier BMWs and Benzes, and I don't like the current offerings. I remember having the cup holders replaced and never using them becuase they are crap and having the HVAC button panel replaced before I took delivery of the car (it was a CPO car)...things that shouldn't have been broken in what was then a 20K mile car. I can only imagine what the idrive and equavelent MB system must be like to live with now... I don't say all of this to merely bash BMW and Mercedes- I say it out of frustration because I'm sure the current BMW's still have the best blend of handling/ride out there, and excellent brakes etc. They are just not made as well- very frustrating

ventoGT

I'm looking to replace my M3 daily for an e39 540i 6speed sport. Hopefully I'll have good luck with it. I had an e46 2000 323Ci which I sold to a friend's Dad at 50K miles--it's now at 85K and the only thing that has gone wrong is one O2 sensor and the sunroof clips. I drove it for 30K and the only thing I had to do was replace the brakes at 45K [it was pricey, but brakes ain't cheap].

BMW issued recalls for the M3 motors and replaced all suspect parts for several years, tacking on a 100K mile warranty for good faith on top of that. That is something that Porsche obviously has no interest in doing, and I have had much better experiences at BMW service depts than I have at Porsche ones so far, but we shall see how my luck fairs me

So, if anyone knows of a 2003 540i 6 Speed sport with less than 40K miles, please let me know

milrad

But as far as I know, these crap parts are not in my Lexus. And if they are, they must have been put into a better engineered system because at 112,000 miles I do not have a CEL.

Certainly not all Japanese products are outstanding. Witness the issues with the Acura RL mentioned above (and detailed in the last Car and Driver). Lexus/Toyota just seems to have figured these issues out before putting them into production.



Jason

carcommander

I have owned more than 50 german cars, BMW, Mercedes (currently a CL55) and porsches. They are all more trouble than the japanese cars I have had. They way they drive is worth it. BTW my 97 C2S with 29,000 has yet to require a repair. Just maintainance.

andrew911

Even though this is thread is off topic, great discussion!

Deanriffs

My brother has a beautiful 2005 330i coupe. He has been irritated with a rattle from a speaker and some trim part that won't stay on. They're not quite the same, but still great cars.

We have a '99 Acura TL, which has been the most reliable car I have ever owned. It has 71K miles, and only had a loose CD storage unit, a creaky sunroof (needed lube) and a small piece of weatherstripping that is loose after 50K miles. The first two were covered by warranty. It is a solid, reliable car.

That said, I agree with carcommander that the PITAs are worth the driving experience. I do not plan to get another Acura right now, as I miss the Teutonic feel of the Audis that we've owned. However, I do miss the solid feel, no nonsense aspects of the earlier European cars. Maybe the tide will turn back?

pcar964

I don't think the tide will turn back. People don't expect things to last anymore, they only plan to own a car for a couple years then trade it in. Like a cell phone, only made to look cool and have a bunch of neat gadgets, but will be replaced every couple years.

If people don't expect the same high quality they used to produce, then why would they provide it?

eloyex

i wonder why nobody post this thread before ........ !

the father of my best friend bought some years ago a brand new 325i plenty of options, european version and the car gave them so many problems that they switched to toyotas. the car was in the mechanic for warranty issues so many times that they ended up hating the car ... rust problems, injector and injection problems, uphols. problems, door mechanism jammed , etc ... etc ... they was shocked as they think were first quality cars. perhaps bad luck __?

the fact is they have now toyotas an american cars.

autobonrun

I've owned four BMWs since 1985. As they get older, you better be able to do some of your own maintenance work, or as a minimum explain what needs to be done to the dealer. I've had great luck with my cars but the maintenance can add up. The biggest problem with my 7 series has been the suspension bushings, (thrust arm, etc.) and hose leaks. I rebuilt my own transmission valve body and saved a bundle. I replaced my own radiator and changed a aux fan resistor instead of the entire fan assembly ($65 vs $900 quoted by the dealer).

If you're not ready for the maintenance, you should trade them as soon as the warranty expires. I tend to keep my cars for at least 10 years so I make it a point to dig into the technical details and buy the necessary tools and maintenance manuals. I know this isn't everyone's cup of tea. For them, there are definitley other options available.

It helps to be on good relationship with the dealer and be a BMWCCA member (10% discount). I've dealt with the same dealer for 15 years and the same service advisor for over 12 years. They don't try to pull any fast ones and will even install parts for me that I've purchased elsewhere.

For the BMW driving experience, I've decided I'll deal with the maintenance issues up to a point. Recently, I reached that point with my 93 740iL that had 188k miles; so just yesterday I sold it and bought a pristine 2003 M5 for my daily driver. It's fully CPO'd and warrantied until 2009. The fit and finish of this M5's interior is heads and shoulders above my older 7 series. It was a fast 300 mile trip back to my house to say the least. Beast is a well deserved name for this car. Personally, I have no desire to sacrifice the driving enjoyment that comes from driving a high performance car in exchange for a boring car that doesn't have maintenance issues. Just my opinion, I can understand those that are not willing to deal with the maintenance. But oh when they are on point, there's no better sedan out there.

I do have a problem with the complexity of the newer cars and the steep depreciation of the 7 series, not to mention the Bangle look. That's why I decided on the last year of the V8 M5. (Not to mention the fact that the new M5 is out of my price range )

Anir

I guess we're not the only ones:

(1) 2002 BMW M3 SMG: engine failure at 8,000 miles

(2) 2003 Range Rover (many parts from X5): steering column motor broke twice, front differential failed three times, all kinds of electronic niggles, radiator leaked, CV boot leaked, ...

(3) 2000 MB S500: worst interior trim quality I've ever seen, with plastic umbrella holder in front of driver's seat breaking during first week of ownership

The 1992 MB 500E is solid as a rock at 14 years and 70,000 miles. Almost entirely analog controls (except outside temperature gauge and radio).

On a positive note, our 2003 Audi A8L is a super car so far, with great interior build quality, at 62,000 miles.

9elheven

My wife's 96 Camry has 338,xxx miles, and still counting. Just a couple of O2 sensors, cleaned out a plenum when the accelerator bogged, and oh yes the power steering pump leaks a bit - I have to fill it with some fluid occasionally. Regular oil changes on the V6 every 3k miles, pads every 70-80k, and, oh yeah, I put on new rotors a while back. Of course, the suspension is shot, she's got a couple of dings, and her armrest is worn (the car, not my wife); otherwise, that's it. She still looks pretty good - maybe like Cher would look if she didn't have cosmetic surgery. (Again, the car, not my wife.) OK, so maybe the car is more like Joan Rivers without the plastic. She (my wife) sure got her money's worth out of this vehicle. I'm not sure if it's true, but I heard that Toyota does 0 (zero) quality control checks on the production line; they don't need to do any, because the design and engineering is in place before they're built. Oh, and a fellow I work with has 440k on his 89 Camry...he only drives it on local trips, and it looks like hell, but it still passes NJ inspection!

cesar

I've got a 98 Acura RL with 70k on it, no problems at all. Bought it with 34k on it in 2002. Oil changes every 3k and gas, that's it. Not as exciting as a BMW to drive, but not that bad either.

I do find that when I drive a BMW, I'm more agressive since it handles so well. So the RL is probably saving me money on speeding tickets and insurance in addition to breakdown costs.

andrew911

This is true with my BMW as well- I'm always wondering why people around me are driving so slow on the highway, then I look down and realize the guy I'm thinking of passing is already doing 85-90. The ride/handling mix is unlike any car I've ever driven. On one hand you have to live with the car for a few weeks before you really see how good it is in all conditions- twisties, long highways, etc, but then a few weeks after that you are not as impressed with the handling/braking- because you're used to it and take the controlability of the car for granted! One drive in a rental car brings it all back into perspective when for instance the first stab at the brakes makes the rental car pitch down so much...or the body leans on turns...or the brakes stink.

Anyway, even with the plastic interior, idrive and ugly bangle styling, I would think the new BMW's probably still have the traits of being excelent driving cars (I've never driven one of the current models, but I'm sure they kept that part of the equation). I'm not sure of how the newer Mercedes are- the old 1980s-90s S classes I speak so highly of were not sporty tight handling cars, they were built like and drove like tanks, but that's the way they were designed. I do think the exterior styling of the current Mercedes are very nice, but alas the interior quality-

autobanrun- you've got the same idea I have! You've got the only car I'd want to replace my 540 sport with You also have the same car lift- a man of good taste

ventoGT

True, but BMW acknowledged this and stepped up to the plate to recall all of the motors, replace them, and warranty the new ones for 100K miles. RMS anyone?