OT: BMW woes/decline in quality
03-14-2006, 02:46 PM
#17
Originally Posted by andrew911
Well, I've chimed in on this very topic on the 964 forum, as well as the BMW forums...and I agree 100% with what has been said. I have a 2000 540i 6-speed, and the car is excellent. It has 62K miles on it and I just replaced all 4 brakes and rotors, as well as the clutch, and the water pump went at 50K miles & was covered under warranty. Other than that it has been farily trouble free so far (coulpe of other nits and nats). The clutch is a weak point, and I've never burned through a clutch so fast, but besides that it has been a great car so far...just waiting for the radiator to blow, which will probably happen any day now that it's over 60K miles.
That said, the interior quality of the more recent generations of Mercedes and BMW's (inlcuding my 540) are not what they once were. The buttons and switches on my car were far surpassed in quality by my prior car- a 1998 Caddilac STS!
People talking about bank vault like build quality of the 1980's Mercedes, and the solid feel of the 1980's BMW's are not imagining anything. The old S and e-class benzes had several bolts that held on the door jam receiver alone! What a car! The BMW's and Mercedes up to about the early 1990's were cars that were bought to be owned for years and cherished for literally 100's of thousands of miles. The current ones are appliances, designed to be leased for 36 months and traded in.
We're happy with our '03 325xi and '00 540, and the next cars we'd look to buy are a used X5 to replace the 325 when we need the space, and a low-mileage M5 used from the same generation when my 540 is being replaced. None of the new BMW's do anything for me, and I'm sure the X5 replacement will be as bad as their other current cars by the time we're ready to get a bigger car than our 325.
My theory in all this is I think the only place for German companys to cut costs was in their build quality and quality of parts when they were forced to compete with Lexus (and Infinity). There were many people who said in 1990- "the S430 is a better car than the LS400, but do I really need to spend $66K on my car when I can get a car that's just as quiet and big for $36K?" Even though there were obvious plastic or "lighter" parts used in the Lexus, the "average" buyer of these cars didn't notice these things or didn't really care (not the way us car nuts do anyway) This caused the Germans to have to cut costs- they didn't decrease the high costs they pay to their labor force, so the only other place to cut costs was to make the 5-bolt door jam receivers into 2 screw plastic receivers, decrease the use of solid parts, etc etc. In essence, they copied Lexus (except the reliability wasn't replicated) It's a sad thing....the same general thing has happened with the post-993 911's by the way- nice cars, but not bulletproof- too "plasticy"
That said, the interior quality of the more recent generations of Mercedes and BMW's (inlcuding my 540) are not what they once were. The buttons and switches on my car were far surpassed in quality by my prior car- a 1998 Caddilac STS!
People talking about bank vault like build quality of the 1980's Mercedes, and the solid feel of the 1980's BMW's are not imagining anything. The old S and e-class benzes had several bolts that held on the door jam receiver alone! What a car! The BMW's and Mercedes up to about the early 1990's were cars that were bought to be owned for years and cherished for literally 100's of thousands of miles. The current ones are appliances, designed to be leased for 36 months and traded in.
We're happy with our '03 325xi and '00 540, and the next cars we'd look to buy are a used X5 to replace the 325 when we need the space, and a low-mileage M5 used from the same generation when my 540 is being replaced. None of the new BMW's do anything for me, and I'm sure the X5 replacement will be as bad as their other current cars by the time we're ready to get a bigger car than our 325.
My theory in all this is I think the only place for German companys to cut costs was in their build quality and quality of parts when they were forced to compete with Lexus (and Infinity). There were many people who said in 1990- "the S430 is a better car than the LS400, but do I really need to spend $66K on my car when I can get a car that's just as quiet and big for $36K?" Even though there were obvious plastic or "lighter" parts used in the Lexus, the "average" buyer of these cars didn't notice these things or didn't really care (not the way us car nuts do anyway) This caused the Germans to have to cut costs- they didn't decrease the high costs they pay to their labor force, so the only other place to cut costs was to make the 5-bolt door jam receivers into 2 screw plastic receivers, decrease the use of solid parts, etc etc. In essence, they copied Lexus (except the reliability wasn't replicated) It's a sad thing....the same general thing has happened with the post-993 911's by the way- nice cars, but not bulletproof- too "plasticy"
03-14-2006, 03:31 PM
#18
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The Lexus RX300 owned by another family member for 120k miles, give or take, has been faultless and comfortable, cheap to own after purchase, and the interior still looks good, and it was most definately NOT pampered. There is no excuse, I am sad to say, for the current state of German cars, or American ones, for that matter (I mean American-founded companies, since so many companies now outsource their contruction). The issue stems from outsourcing manufacture, a lack of attention to and prioritization of quality, cost-cutting, and from the profit motive, as well as a general decline in how much people seem to care about quality vs. quantity. People still buy them, so why build good cars if they can cut corners and make more per car, or make enough to cover health care expenses for their employees and that 25 million $ salary for the big guy?
Most stuff is crap. You have to look for quality. Keep the 993 as long as you can.
Most stuff is crap. You have to look for quality. Keep the 993 as long as you can.
03-14-2006, 06:01 PM
#19
FWIF I own a 98 528i- 6 speed, sport, no issues in 66,000 miles except a thermostat and, just recently, power steering pump. Best four door I've ever owned.
Also own a 2001 x5 4.4 that has had a number of issues, all replaced under warranty, all PITA stuff, must have had 10 rear hatch switches by now.
So yes I'd buy another one. Even though I think the x5 has been troublesome I hear it's nothing compared to Cayennes.
Also own a 2001 x5 4.4 that has had a number of issues, all replaced under warranty, all PITA stuff, must have had 10 rear hatch switches by now.
So yes I'd buy another one. Even though I think the x5 has been troublesome I hear it's nothing compared to Cayennes.
03-14-2006, 06:23 PM
#20
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My own experience with BMW has been very disappointing. I had a '99 e36 M3 which used a lot of oil, was burning a quart every 400 miles by the time I reached 90,000 miles and ultimately required a complete bottom and top end rebuild. BMW would not back the car up in any way, and was very quick to hide behind ignorant and unsubstantiated claims that some of the performance mods I had made to the car (e.g. minor software mods) were to blame for this premature engine failure (even though the signs were there much earlier and the software was installed by the dealer). After the rebuild, the car continued to have problems with oil consumption, and they still would not admit that it might just be a lemon. The worst was the world-class terrible attitudes of their arrogant corporate leaders and spokespeople who did not even have the courtesy to respond to any request I had for consideration. 
I am just thrilled to be back in a 911, and despite the slightly more expensive routine maintenance, find the 993 to be remarkably reliable for it's performance profile.
I am just thrilled to be back in a 911, and despite the slightly more expensive routine maintenance, find the 993 to be remarkably reliable for it's performance profile.
03-14-2006, 07:35 PM
#21
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I have to say that the E39 6 cylinder cars (525, 528, 530 etc.) are bullet proof. They have the time-tested in-line 6 engine, and minimal electronic gedgets. Replace the plastic radiator system and ditch the clutch delay valve and you have an almost perfect car.
If I buy another BMW, it will be the 2003 530i 5 speed. That is a great car, almost timeless.
CP
If I buy another BMW, it will be the 2003 530i 5 speed. That is a great car, almost timeless.
CP
03-14-2006, 07:49 PM
#22
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I have always felt that everyone have different energy level connection with the brand of the car, I know it sounds crazy..... I mean some people have good vibes with a certain brand, some bad. For example I always had issues with every single MBZ I have owned, annoying little problems here and there, just pissed the hell out of me. And I swear I will never buy another MBZ again, and then I decide to give it one more shot, and then I got another lemon...
On the other hand I have always had great luck with BMW, butI have only owned the 3 series. Had a 97 328is, drove the crap out of it, never missed a beat. Same with my 2000 323ci, great car.
FRom my experience, I felt BMW is a lot better than Porsche in admitting fault and have the eagerness to fix them right away. For example they had some leaking P/S hose issue (not that big of deal..) but they fixed it on their own when I had my car in for service... And same with the thermostate, just replaced it without me even asking them to.
I just felt BMW was a lot of proactive when it comes to fixing problems that they know was their fault... But not Porsche...
For example, I read in one of the TSB about the front transfer case of my 99 c4, which was to replace the unit if leak were found, the original unit was "Machined improperly"... I checked with the dealer service writer regarding this and he told me that the owner have to fork over the cost.... What the hell? So I paid for an improperly machined transfer case?
Same with the RMS... it is definitely a material usage issue... again, Porsche will not do anything about it. The problem really has to come up and bite them in the butt for them to even consider it, I.E. Engine harness causing fire!
On the other hand I have always had great luck with BMW, butI have only owned the 3 series. Had a 97 328is, drove the crap out of it, never missed a beat. Same with my 2000 323ci, great car.
FRom my experience, I felt BMW is a lot better than Porsche in admitting fault and have the eagerness to fix them right away. For example they had some leaking P/S hose issue (not that big of deal..) but they fixed it on their own when I had my car in for service... And same with the thermostate, just replaced it without me even asking them to.
I just felt BMW was a lot of proactive when it comes to fixing problems that they know was their fault... But not Porsche...
For example, I read in one of the TSB about the front transfer case of my 99 c4, which was to replace the unit if leak were found, the original unit was "Machined improperly"... I checked with the dealer service writer regarding this and he told me that the owner have to fork over the cost.... What the hell? So I paid for an improperly machined transfer case?
Same with the RMS... it is definitely a material usage issue... again, Porsche will not do anything about it. The problem really has to come up and bite them in the butt for them to even consider it, I.E. Engine harness causing fire!
03-14-2006, 09:33 PM
#23
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We have owned an E320 Benz since new in '94, and it has been excellent. But, I wouldn't buy another Chrysler-Benz, given the experience of MANY friends who have purchased the newer Benz offerings. I used to look at my Father's Consumer Reports annual auto issue many moons ago, with the Benz offerings taking 3-4 spots in the "best" category when it came to frequency of repair. I was in a Dr's office recently, and there was a CR auto issue for '06. Of the 10 WORST in frequency of repair, 3 were Benz models!
Same for many German brands....happy to have enjoyed the good years!
Same for many German brands....happy to have enjoyed the good years!
03-14-2006, 09:52 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by jimbone
I love BMW, but my wife, who was a diehard BMW fan, said yesterday that she doesn't think she'll get another BMW and we'll move to the Japanese car market (never owned one). Does anyone else have similar experiences or opinions?
My suggestion if you go Japanese is to go with Toyota or Lexus. The new Acura RL has its share of problems too.
03-14-2006, 10:06 PM
#25
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My wife's 05 E320 is a major POS, and I am on the verge of filing a lemon law claim. NEVER buy one of these cars that is not going to be under warranty for the entire time you intend to own it. 
Her previous 98 528i was better, but it had it's share of annoying little problems too.
Now my 97 Lexus ES300 beater, that's a car! No personality, no soul, plain as vanilla (well, maybe French Vanilla), but it never breaks. It gets no love other than regular maintenance (all consumables). You couldn't ask for more out of regular transportation.
It is soon coming to the time when I planned to pass this Lexus on to my daughter, but I have a real dilemma as what to replace it with. Maybe I'll just keep it!
Jason
Her previous 98 528i was better, but it had it's share of annoying little problems too.
Now my 97 Lexus ES300 beater, that's a car! No personality, no soul, plain as vanilla (well, maybe French Vanilla), but it never breaks. It gets no love other than regular maintenance (all consumables). You couldn't ask for more out of regular transportation.
It is soon coming to the time when I planned to pass this Lexus on to my daughter, but I have a real dilemma as what to replace it with. Maybe I'll just keep it!
Jason
03-14-2006, 10:31 PM
#26
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I've been big on VWs over the last several years. The two I have now have run without a problem. Literally gas, oil, and tires and just keep going. But we had a Touareg for about a year and I was tired of taking it to the shop on a regular basis. The air suspension failed on it the first trip out of state with less than 5,000 miles on it. In the shop for 10 days while the figure out which one of the 64 computer control modules failed. This was followed up by one of the wheel sensors giving me heartburn. Once we got by about the 6 month period it started to settle down. But it was clear this was no car to own out of warranty. Got a great trade in opportunity and was able to get a new Passat and a 993 for what I was paying on the Touareg. Who says a Porsche isn't good affordable transportation? 
03-14-2006, 11:00 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by Jason M
Now my 97 Lexus ES300 beater, that's a car! No personality, no soul, plain as vanilla (well, maybe French Vanilla), but it never breaks. It gets no love other than regular maintenance (all consumables). You couldn't ask for more out of regular transportation.
It is soon coming to the time when I planned to pass this Lexus on to my daughter, but I have a real dilemma as what to replace it with. Maybe I'll just keep it!
Jason
It is soon coming to the time when I planned to pass this Lexus on to my daughter, but I have a real dilemma as what to replace it with. Maybe I'll just keep it!
Jason
I have a 92 Lexus SC300, 5-speed. First model year, so if the BMW loyalist's premise is true, I should have major problem with that car. NOT.
It now has 135k miles. I passed it to my daughter as her daily driver in 2001 and we still have the original brake and rotors now. We have not spent one dime on repairs, and routine consummables in the car is minimal. Quiet, nice power, decent fun to drive, extremely comfortable, and a timeless look (in my eyes). I will buy another one new if they still make cars like this. I am hoping a stripped down (read minimum electronics) Cayman (not the S) may be like this car. That might be just a pipe dream though.
I will NEVER sell the SC300. If the engine dies, I'll put in crate Supra engine, and turbo-charge it one day. I will keep that baby forever.
CP
03-14-2006, 11:18 PM
#28
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Just to add my 2 bits...
...I bought a 1999 Lexus ES300 2 years ago with 120K miles for $7000 as a beater in order to save wear and tear on my 993 from the Houston roads and traffic. I just turned 150K miles last week and had a look back at what she cost me for the last 30K miles...drum roll, please...$404.32 That's 10 oil changes, a couple of O2 sensors (replaced by me in 5 minutes), and smog checks. I also show that Lexus replaced 3 faulty sensors and a gas cap at no charge to me (lets see BMW/Porsche do that!). Lexus is definitely the longevity king of the hill right now. Boring as hell to drive, but it gets the job done.
sean
...I bought a 1999 Lexus ES300 2 years ago with 120K miles for $7000 as a beater in order to save wear and tear on my 993 from the Houston roads and traffic. I just turned 150K miles last week and had a look back at what she cost me for the last 30K miles...drum roll, please...$404.32 That's 10 oil changes, a couple of O2 sensors (replaced by me in 5 minutes), and smog checks. I also show that Lexus replaced 3 faulty sensors and a gas cap at no charge to me (lets see BMW/Porsche do that!). Lexus is definitely the longevity king of the hill right now. Boring as hell to drive, but it gets the job done.
sean
03-14-2006, 11:26 PM
#29
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"German products cutting cost and quality..."
So I think we are finally getting to the bottom of the SAI failures...... :P
Both the check valve and the SAI valve are all made in Japan..... Nipon Denso....
So I think we are finally getting to the bottom of the SAI failures...... :P
Both the check valve and the SAI valve are all made in Japan..... Nipon Denso....
03-14-2006, 11:40 PM
#30
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Hey folks,
I've been a BMW guy for years, mostly 3 series, and I was very excited a few years ago when my wife agreed to a used 2000 323iT. These are NOT the E21 and E30 cars I grew up with. I have concur with the M-B comments about quality. The old S class Benzes (85-90) were certainly vaults, and had minimal issues with gizmos - they were just solid cars like the E30 BMWs. Our poor wagon has had just about every electronic category (a/c controls, radio, mirror, seat heater, window motor, lock switch, 3rd brake light, it goes on and on) replaced at some point, including a transmission at 56k. I've known BMW automatics to be weak, and I'm glad the CPO warranty ate that one, but I don't see driving this car to 160k like I did my last E30 325i. One issue I felt has changed things is BMW's attitude towards maintenance. Working at a dealer in 1985-86, I can recall the price shock people had at their first "Inspection I" and the requirements for maintanence BMW placed on the schedule. However, following those intervals kept your car in top shape. I guess the lack of required maintanence of the luxury Japenese forced BMW to extend the intervals into the realm of silliness - lifetime transmission and differential fluid? hmmm, if your lifetime is the 3yr lease you signed maybe! They can certainly claim their service costs are less expensive when you only change the oil every 15k! (I'm changing it at 5k) One last rant, they have gone out of their way to make the car difficult to service at home. When I went to change the oil, I had to get a 36mm socket to open the oil filter canister! on my E28 535i and E30 318iC, I recall that being a 13mm nut - no excuse for it in my opinion.
anyway, my wife wants a supercharged Scion tC now - sorry BMW...
I've been a BMW guy for years, mostly 3 series, and I was very excited a few years ago when my wife agreed to a used 2000 323iT. These are NOT the E21 and E30 cars I grew up with. I have concur with the M-B comments about quality. The old S class Benzes (85-90) were certainly vaults, and had minimal issues with gizmos - they were just solid cars like the E30 BMWs. Our poor wagon has had just about every electronic category (a/c controls, radio, mirror, seat heater, window motor, lock switch, 3rd brake light, it goes on and on) replaced at some point, including a transmission at 56k. I've known BMW automatics to be weak, and I'm glad the CPO warranty ate that one, but I don't see driving this car to 160k like I did my last E30 325i. One issue I felt has changed things is BMW's attitude towards maintenance. Working at a dealer in 1985-86, I can recall the price shock people had at their first "Inspection I" and the requirements for maintanence BMW placed on the schedule. However, following those intervals kept your car in top shape. I guess the lack of required maintanence of the luxury Japenese forced BMW to extend the intervals into the realm of silliness - lifetime transmission and differential fluid? hmmm, if your lifetime is the 3yr lease you signed maybe! They can certainly claim their service costs are less expensive when you only change the oil every 15k! (I'm changing it at 5k) One last rant, they have gone out of their way to make the car difficult to service at home. When I went to change the oil, I had to get a 36mm socket to open the oil filter canister! on my E28 535i and E30 318iC, I recall that being a 13mm nut - no excuse for it in my opinion.
anyway, my wife wants a supercharged Scion tC now - sorry BMW...