Learning to drive for the track
01-08-2006, 10:27 AM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Learning to drive for the track
I know this question parallels another post, but I wanted to know if I am doing good or harm.
I have often wondered about the best way to practice for my first upcoming DE. I understand one element is smoothness. We stress this with flying aircraft and I can see its importance in driving. I have yet to get track time, but have been working on smoothness on the country roads at the speed limit. I never push the car where it squeals tires on the turn, just try to execute the turn with as much precision as I can and still maintain a quick clip.
The downside I see to this is that my lines through the turn always follow the lane and not the lowest G force (which I assume is the proper line for a "normal" turn).
I would think that this method may lead to a habit that is good for the street (namely oncoming traffic), but I worry that it will tend to carry over to the track when I finally get to DE). Maybe I am wrong.
In the meantime, whatever I drive, wherever I drive, I always practice precision in my line, my speed, braking, shifting, and steering. My thoughts are to be as smooth and precise as I can.
My goal is to take maximum advantage of the street time (and enjoy my drive) before taking a DE so I can focus on things that I can't learn on the street.
So my question is: is that a good practice for street driving or a recipe for bad habits on the track?
Is there a better way to go about this?
Thanks in advance,
I have often wondered about the best way to practice for my first upcoming DE. I understand one element is smoothness. We stress this with flying aircraft and I can see its importance in driving. I have yet to get track time, but have been working on smoothness on the country roads at the speed limit. I never push the car where it squeals tires on the turn, just try to execute the turn with as much precision as I can and still maintain a quick clip.
The downside I see to this is that my lines through the turn always follow the lane and not the lowest G force (which I assume is the proper line for a "normal" turn).
I would think that this method may lead to a habit that is good for the street (namely oncoming traffic), but I worry that it will tend to carry over to the track when I finally get to DE). Maybe I am wrong.
In the meantime, whatever I drive, wherever I drive, I always practice precision in my line, my speed, braking, shifting, and steering. My thoughts are to be as smooth and precise as I can.
My goal is to take maximum advantage of the street time (and enjoy my drive) before taking a DE so I can focus on things that I can't learn on the street.
So my question is: is that a good practice for street driving or a recipe for bad habits on the track?
Is there a better way to go about this?
Thanks in advance,
01-08-2006, 11:55 AM
#2
Drifting
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Marv, your question is fair and one that I though about many years ago before I started tracking my car. I started with auto-x and driving schools that our PCA region offered. Driving on the street never allows you to achieve the performance levels of a 993 without being dangerous to others including yourself. Our driving school is a performance driving school which fundamentally teaches drivers about car dynamics and basic track driving lines. You cannot get this on the street though your habits of driving on the street smoothly is something that should always be done whether you want to track a car or not.
In auto-x, you really get to push the car to cornering limits within a safe environment. You learn the line of a tracks, you learn G forces and when and where you can push them, and most importantly you learn the limits of your car handling and your ability. Again in a safe environment.
So to answer your question, I believe you are helping yourself by learning to drive your car smoothly. You are learn your car in terms of braking and shift points and some of the handling capabilities. However, you are not learning a proper track driving line, you are not learning any car handling at or near the limits, and you are not getting comfortable with the car at higher speeds where things happen much more quickly. You mentioned driving lines with the lowest G forces, but in fact our cars can handle fairly high G forces in corners when set up correctly and to achieve fast times on a track you want to achieve as high a G force in corners at speed as you can to achieve a fast time. Minimizing your G force in corners will feel smooth but not be fast. This is not to say that you should not be smooth with high G force turns, it is just to say that using the maximum friction on your tires with the maximum speed in corners will yield the fastest time through any section.
So is there a better way to go about this? yes, find yourself a performance driving school like our PCA San Diego region has and get into some auto-x events in a slower safer environment. You will learn alot and do it safely. Then graduate up to the big track DE style driving and see where you might want to go from there.
In auto-x, you really get to push the car to cornering limits within a safe environment. You learn the line of a tracks, you learn G forces and when and where you can push them, and most importantly you learn the limits of your car handling and your ability. Again in a safe environment.
So to answer your question, I believe you are helping yourself by learning to drive your car smoothly. You are learn your car in terms of braking and shift points and some of the handling capabilities. However, you are not learning a proper track driving line, you are not learning any car handling at or near the limits, and you are not getting comfortable with the car at higher speeds where things happen much more quickly. You mentioned driving lines with the lowest G forces, but in fact our cars can handle fairly high G forces in corners when set up correctly and to achieve fast times on a track you want to achieve as high a G force in corners at speed as you can to achieve a fast time. Minimizing your G force in corners will feel smooth but not be fast. This is not to say that you should not be smooth with high G force turns, it is just to say that using the maximum friction on your tires with the maximum speed in corners will yield the fastest time through any section.
So is there a better way to go about this? yes, find yourself a performance driving school like our PCA San Diego region has and get into some auto-x events in a slower safer environment. You will learn alot and do it safely. Then graduate up to the big track DE style driving and see where you might want to go from there.
01-08-2006, 11:58 AM
#3
Instructor
"In the meantime, whatever I drive, wherever I drive, I always practice precision in my line, my speed, braking, shifting, and steering. My thoughts are to be as smooth and precise as I can."
This question may be better served by one of the PCA instructors, but I would say for the most part practicing driving techniques while on the street is not neccesarily a bad thing, with the proper discretion; I do. Common sense, paying attention to location, conditions, what I am practicing, and who is around me obviously comes into play. When I am driving on the street, I practice being precise and paying attention to weight distribution, smooth steering inputs and attention to the pedals, which is always a good thing.
As far as how it transfers to track driving? The habits you form in your daily driving will provide you with better instincts on the track, IMO. However, the practice you do on the street is no where near any limit (4/10's to 6/10's at most) that you can find on the track. And for that reason, HPDE on track is still the best environment to learn and improve, not to mention it's safer.
This question may be better served by one of the PCA instructors, but I would say for the most part practicing driving techniques while on the street is not neccesarily a bad thing, with the proper discretion; I do. Common sense, paying attention to location, conditions, what I am practicing, and who is around me obviously comes into play. When I am driving on the street, I practice being precise and paying attention to weight distribution, smooth steering inputs and attention to the pedals, which is always a good thing.
As far as how it transfers to track driving? The habits you form in your daily driving will provide you with better instincts on the track, IMO. However, the practice you do on the street is no where near any limit (4/10's to 6/10's at most) that you can find on the track. And for that reason, HPDE on track is still the best environment to learn and improve, not to mention it's safer.
01-08-2006, 11:59 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
Marv,
Just pretend that your street lane is the track width. Although I might "drop a wheel onto the curbing" aka have a tire go a bit over the yellow line, it's silly and usually dangerous to try and use the whole road all in the name of maximum track in/track out and utilization of the line. No matter what you do, though, you may be reinforcing bad habits on the track. What really matters on the track is that you listen to your instructor and keep an open mind, thereby helping to eradicate incorrect inputs. Also, on the track, you'll be able to see the whole track for what it is and want to use it all, give or take a couple of feet of track, depending on how confident you feel. If you're turning in too soon or too late, missing apexes or pinching turns, your instructor will (or should) let you know.
I think it's great to practice smoothness and precision on the street. I do it all the time and, like you, do it in everything I drive. It makes your inputs and road awareness completely automatic.
Just pretend that your street lane is the track width. Although I might "drop a wheel onto the curbing" aka have a tire go a bit over the yellow line, it's silly and usually dangerous to try and use the whole road all in the name of maximum track in/track out and utilization of the line. No matter what you do, though, you may be reinforcing bad habits on the track. What really matters on the track is that you listen to your instructor and keep an open mind, thereby helping to eradicate incorrect inputs. Also, on the track, you'll be able to see the whole track for what it is and want to use it all, give or take a couple of feet of track, depending on how confident you feel. If you're turning in too soon or too late, missing apexes or pinching turns, your instructor will (or should) let you know.
I think it's great to practice smoothness and precision on the street. I do it all the time and, like you, do it in everything I drive. It makes your inputs and road awareness completely automatic.
01-08-2006, 12:17 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Like Kary said, there is such a huge difference between track and street driving that there is essentially nothing you can practice on the street that will prepare you. (caveat-there is actually ONE thing you can practice on the street: heel-toe downshifting). IMHO You'd be MUCH better off going out and buying a PS2 with Gran Turismo 4 and practicing with that. GT4 will help teach you how to learn a new track quickly and how to countersteer when your car gets loose. These are 2 crucial novice skills that can't be learned on the street. And in case you're wondering, yes I learned how to countersteer playing GT4. 
01-08-2006, 01:14 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
I would agree with all the above comments. I would definitely not recommend working on the "line" or braking/accelerating limits on the street.
I also agree with Erics comment about the importance of learning countersteering. This can be learned with autocross. This is usually not the fast way around the track, but there are times when you need it to stay on the track.
You can work on heel toe footwork, but be aware that when you are on the track, you will probably be braking more aggressively and the relative pedal heights may be different.
My club requires us to run with the windows down, which changes the audio cues quite a bit. Before an event, I sometimes run with the windows down on the street to acclimate to the wind noise. This is now less of an issue with supercups.
Pete
I also agree with Erics comment about the importance of learning countersteering. This can be learned with autocross. This is usually not the fast way around the track, but there are times when you need it to stay on the track.
You can work on heel toe footwork, but be aware that when you are on the track, you will probably be braking more aggressively and the relative pedal heights may be different.
My club requires us to run with the windows down, which changes the audio cues quite a bit. Before an event, I sometimes run with the windows down on the street to acclimate to the wind noise. This is now less of an issue with supercups.
Pete
01-08-2006, 01:20 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks, all for the help and feedback. I need an instructor and some track time.
What I meant about the lower G line is that you want, I assume, to take a line through a curve that represents the lowest lateral G, but the point of maximum G should be at or slightly less the adhesion limit for the car. That assumes you are not going to bring the tail out in a slide or not going to drift the car around the turn, which I guess is one technique, but not necessarily the fastest way around a turn, nor the most economical for your tires. Although, it is fun in the snow in an empty parking lot. ;-)
So, approaching a turn you want to use the outside portion of the track upon entry, the inside edge somewhere in the middle of the turn, and the outside edge of the track upon exit. If you do that on the street other drivers get upset. I know I do when someone coming towards me dips into my lane so they can make the turn because they are too lazy to turn the power steering wheel or just going too fast.
In the meantime I can work on heel and toe shifting.
What I meant about the lower G line is that you want, I assume, to take a line through a curve that represents the lowest lateral G, but the point of maximum G should be at or slightly less the adhesion limit for the car. That assumes you are not going to bring the tail out in a slide or not going to drift the car around the turn, which I guess is one technique, but not necessarily the fastest way around a turn, nor the most economical for your tires. Although, it is fun in the snow in an empty parking lot. ;-)
So, approaching a turn you want to use the outside portion of the track upon entry, the inside edge somewhere in the middle of the turn, and the outside edge of the track upon exit. If you do that on the street other drivers get upset. I know I do when someone coming towards me dips into my lane so they can make the turn because they are too lazy to turn the power steering wheel or just going too fast.
In the meantime I can work on heel and toe shifting.
Originally Posted by kary993
Marv, your question is fair and one that I though about many years ago before I started tracking my car. I started with auto-x and driving schools that our PCA region offered. Driving on the street never allows you to achieve the performance levels of a 993 without being dangerous to others including yourself. Our driving school is a performance driving school which fundamentally teaches drivers about car dynamics and basic track driving lines. You cannot get this on the street though your habits of driving on the street smoothly is something that should always be done whether you want to track a car or not.
In auto-x, you really get to push the car to cornering limits within a safe environment. You learn the line of a tracks, you learn G forces and when and where you can push them, and most importantly you learn the limits of your car handling and your ability. Again in a safe environment.
So to answer your question, I believe you are helping yourself by learning to drive your car smoothly. You are learn your car in terms of braking and shift points and some of the handling capabilities. However, you are not learning a proper track driving line, you are not learning any car handling at or near the limits, and you are not getting comfortable with the car at higher speeds where things happen much more quickly. You mentioned driving lines with the lowest G forces, but in fact our cars can handle fairly high G forces in corners when set up correctly and to achieve fast times on a track you want to achieve as high a G force in corners at speed as you can to achieve a fast time. Minimizing your G force in corners will feel smooth but not be fast. This is not to say that you should not be smooth with high G force turns, it is just to say that using the maximum friction on your tires with the maximum speed in corners will yield the fastest time through any section.
So is there a better way to go about this? yes, find yourself a performance driving school like our PCA San Diego region has and get into some auto-x events in a slower safer environment. You will learn alot and do it safely. Then graduate up to the big track DE style driving and see where you might want to go from there.
In auto-x, you really get to push the car to cornering limits within a safe environment. You learn the line of a tracks, you learn G forces and when and where you can push them, and most importantly you learn the limits of your car handling and your ability. Again in a safe environment.
So to answer your question, I believe you are helping yourself by learning to drive your car smoothly. You are learn your car in terms of braking and shift points and some of the handling capabilities. However, you are not learning a proper track driving line, you are not learning any car handling at or near the limits, and you are not getting comfortable with the car at higher speeds where things happen much more quickly. You mentioned driving lines with the lowest G forces, but in fact our cars can handle fairly high G forces in corners when set up correctly and to achieve fast times on a track you want to achieve as high a G force in corners at speed as you can to achieve a fast time. Minimizing your G force in corners will feel smooth but not be fast. This is not to say that you should not be smooth with high G force turns, it is just to say that using the maximum friction on your tires with the maximum speed in corners will yield the fastest time through any section.
So is there a better way to go about this? yes, find yourself a performance driving school like our PCA San Diego region has and get into some auto-x events in a slower safer environment. You will learn alot and do it safely. Then graduate up to the big track DE style driving and see where you might want to go from there.
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01-08-2006, 01:23 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Weather permitting, I always run with the windows down and the sunroof back as a default setting! I never use AC, much to the chagrin of my wife.
Originally Posted by ppressle
My club requires us to run with the windows down, which changes the audio cues quite a bit. Before an event, I sometimes run with the windows down on the street to acclimate to the wind noise. This is now less of an issue with supercups.
Pete
Pete
01-08-2006, 01:56 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
A video........
Skip Barber's Going Faster has help some folks get additional insight into track driving...check it out.
Also, consider a professional driving school such as Bondurant in Chandler, AZ (Good weather almost guaranteed), Jim Russell, Bertil Roos, etc. I did Bondurant a while back...we averaged 6 hours per day behind the wheel, and classroom time as well. This is about a year of Time Trial experience...you will be a much improved driver after one of these schools....then you have a real handle on what you can practice on the streets.
Also, consider a professional driving school such as Bondurant in Chandler, AZ (Good weather almost guaranteed), Jim Russell, Bertil Roos, etc. I did Bondurant a while back...we averaged 6 hours per day behind the wheel, and classroom time as well. This is about a year of Time Trial experience...you will be a much improved driver after one of these schools....then you have a real handle on what you can practice on the streets.
01-08-2006, 05:44 PM
#10
Drifting
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I will 2nd or 3rd the comment with respect to heel & toe shifting. Have the proper technique and the ability to knowing downshift points will pay huge dividends on the track. Smooth in smooth out.
Exit ramps, entry to clover-leafs on the interstate are the best places IMO. You can maintain a reasonable rate of speed within the speed limits (4th down to 3rd cloverleaf and 4th, to 3rd to perhaps second on a off ramp). Proper shoes required or barefoot to start....no kidding.
Exit ramps, entry to clover-leafs on the interstate are the best places IMO. You can maintain a reasonable rate of speed within the speed limits (4th down to 3rd cloverleaf and 4th, to 3rd to perhaps second on a off ramp). Proper shoes required or barefoot to start....no kidding.
01-08-2006, 11:57 PM
#12
Yeah, there's not a whole lot you can do on the street that will help you on the track... As mentioned, maybe heel and toe practice would be a good idea, if you're not used to doing it... Best advice is, don't worry about it! On the drive back from your first DE, you'll realize just how difficult it really is to mimic track driving on the street without being pretty dangerous.
