jimbone

Just a side note on my DE last weekend. This was my second DE and I had a DAS rollbar installed in my 95 cab after the first DE. I took rennlister's advice on the rollbar install and even though it isn't the most fun mod, I came to the conclusion that any safety mod is worthwhile. I was going approximately 80 coming out of a turn and ran out of pavement, although I didn't feel it when I went 2 off (which is pretty scary, cuz I thought It would feel very bumpy, dirt flying, etc. but it was much more subtle than that, word to the wise). As most know, when you go two off, you should stay straight or drive off, NOT (as I found out) pull back on (I thought I was still in the "saving it area", wishful thinking). At some point when you do this you have 3 wheels on the track with traction and you go into a spin. As many know, it happens incredibly fast and I got a quick 360 tour of the course more than few times, helicoptered across the track, went into the infield and went backwards another 30 yards or so. Anyway, it was sobering as it was my first spin, and it happens quick. All in all, I was fine, my instructor was fine, and the car was fine. However, earlier in the day a Mini Cooper S did the same thing on a different turn and the car ended up rolling multiple times. The car was totalled, the driver ended up with (I heard) at least a fractured pelvis, and (luckily) the instructor was OK. I'm not comparing the cars or the safety equipment, just a sobering reminder to those who are novice trackers like myself that it is extremely dangerous and any saftey mod is a good mod, especially if you have a cab like myself. On a positive note, I did get solo'd that day on my second DE, so I felt pretty good about that. Hope this helps anyone else as a fellow rennlister helped me (OK, guilted me) into the getting the rollbar mod.
Next stop: suspension......slippery, slippery

Racer944

Very glad your OK! Also glad there was no wall nearby...

Got to say though that I'm disappointed to hear that your instructor let things get this far and that he also signed you off in only your second DE... and after a major incident. DE is supposed to be fun and safe, and an instructor is supposed to keep you well within your limits and allow you to develop some track sense and experience before solo. Incidents with instructors aboard in novice groups always make me shake my head as they are entirely responsible for what happens out there with the student.

Enjoy yourself, DE is fun and very rewarding but its not about speed. Learn to go slow and smooth within your limits and you will get very fast... and you will have the right basics to build on to keep learning. In my opinion consider getting more seat time before doing your performance mods. You will have a better feel and understanding of the car with more experience, and you will be better prepared to handle the new suspension and the cars new capabilities when you do go ahead with it.

Not intending this as preaching or critcism... Just want DE to be fun and safe for everyone.. especially newcomers.

Cheers;
Eric

Edward

Glad to hear that you're ok, jimbone!
Let's just say ...I know just how you feel! And I, too, will echo the importance not only of good-quality safety gear, but of getting it first as a matter of priority. Good post! ...and lesson learned, eh?


Edward

Mark in Baltimore

Glad to hear no sheet metal or body parts were bruised in your OTE. Things do happen quickly and some of it is skill and some of it is luck that nothing critical happens.

FWIW, instructors should make individual assessments on a student's driving ability and decide on a case-by-case basis whether a student is ready to solo or not. I soloed on the second day of my first DE, presumably because I was not making a mess of myself out there. All was well, I didn't drop a wheel, and I kept my head about me.

Being a newbie at the time, I thought I was driving well within my limits but was trying to carefully ramp up speed and chase another car. My instructor's advice to be careful echoed in my ears but, despite his admonishments and my judicious driving, something could have easily happened due to my lack of experience. Instructors do the best they can, but they don't have overarching autonomous control over their students whether the charges have two days of track experience or twenty days

Bogwan

What is involved in mounting a rollbar in a cab? Like mounting hardware and damage to the vehicle from mounting it. Is it something that can be removed after DE? Just curious, will be doing DE in the spring with my cab, and I think it might be a requirement.

jimbone

Racer 944-
Agreed. I do feel, however, that I was ready to go solo. My instructor was great and I believe he signed me off for a good reason, regardless of quantity of DE's. He mentioned I might be ready for the next run group up in the next event. Outside of the one incident, I felt like I was following good lines, seeing the corner workers and the track, and I was passing more people than were passing me. I know, it's not a race and I'm not a racer, but it is a decent indicator. I take sole responsibilty, as unless the instructor is behind the wheel, I'm responsible. Needless to say, I drove about 60% on my solo runs as I don't have a death wish and my car is my daily driver. I fully recognize that I'm at the point of "a little knowledge is dangerous". I look forward to practicing on my own and grabbing instructors every now and then for further learning. After all, that's what's it's all about! Any other safety mods recommended (aside from more seat time, knowing your limits, etc.), such as arm restraints (Where do you get these?, I need my arms to be a physician!)?

Mark in Baltimore-amen to the instructor part. I thought I had some natural talent until I read your post. Impressive!

Bogwan-my mechanic mounted it, so I'm not sure about the PITA of doing it yourself. It's a DAS sport rollbar, and holes need to be drilled in the footwell in the rear underneath the carpet, the other parts bolt into the seat belt mounts and it really stiffens up the car. It can be removed and bolted back in if you need the rear seats. It comes bare metal and you need to paint or powdercoat it. Highly recommended.

Racer944

jimbone;

Sounds like you are going to have fun at this and you do have the right atitude. The DE program in my region has some minimum seat time requirements and we train instructors fairly extensively before they get students. As a result of this and other measures, incidents are quite rare at our events, and damaging a car is almost unheard of now... As a result of this, I have a tendancy to overeact when I hear of students with instructors aboard spin or go off... Sorry :-)

Since you have a rollbar you might consider a set of properly installed harneses as they help you mantain a better driving position and allow you to relax your grip on the steering and avoid having to brace yourself when cornering. There is of course the safety benefit as well. I think arm restraints are not really needed... but I'm not making my livelyhood with my hands either! You may want to post this question on the Race/DE forum for more opinions.

Cheers;
Eric

P.S. CDOC carries most safety items you can think of...

Marc Shaw

Same as what Eric suggested.......should the next stop not be a 5 point harness (in appropriate seats) and a HANS or equivalent?

Marc

kary993

I was wondering if you had an instructor program that is formalized that you could send me? I have had multiple conversations with our PCA region about proper instructor training but to no avail. Many think just doing some auto-x's and answering a few basic driving questions qualifies a person to be an instructor. NOT!

ZombiePorsche44

jimbone,
I suggest you grab an instructor whenever you can, it never hurts to have someone who is more experienced with you to point out what mistakes you are making.
I have been driving/racing these cars for over 15 years, instructing for 12 years and still take other instructors with me to fine tune my driving skills.
No amount of safety equipment will save your car from being totaled and that's something you should keep in mind. I have seen many people over the years come to DE's, wreck their cars and stand in the pits bitching they had no idea that it could happen to them.

IF you are not willing to write the car and possibly yourself off, you should stick to Auto-X's and driving to work & back. Racing is Dangerous!

Kary,
Years ago I attended the POC instructors classes and qualifications held at Willow, it was formal and had a syllabus. You might check with the current POC Head Instructor and see if the materials are available for us to use here in SD region.

ZP44

TomF

Glad you and your vehicle are okay.

At my first "driver's skills" session this past spring, we watched as a gung-ho '05 996 driver went into a wall at 30 mph. This was at a skills day. Thankfully the instructor and the driver were pretty shaken up but okay. The car was not in as good shape. Appearantly, the instructor had just told the driver to turn off the stereo and take it easy when the accident occured. Imaging having a stereo blasting at a skills event!

The biggest thing that I took away from that day was- in driving, as in life, humility goes a long way.

Racer944

Kary 993;

Yes, we have developed a formal Instructor (and student) training manual and program and I would be more than happy to discuss/share this info with you. PM me and I'll give you my email address and we can take this offline. Some of this is copyrighted material, but Rennsport is very open to sharing this with other regions when requested.

Cheers;
Eric

P.S. When selecting and training instructors, driving skill and car control is indeed important, but good teaching techniques, and interpersonal skills are also some things we really look for in a candidate and concentrate on developing. A good blend of the two is really important in my opinion.

Tom W

Kary,

I have the materials from the PCA national instructors course that was done at Thunderhill earlier this year. Let me know if you would like a copy.

Bull

The materials from the National Instructors Training are excellent. I too have them available. That training assumes that you already know how to drive well on track, and focuses on different learning styles, communications techniques, pre-track check out discussions, debriefing, etc.

Bull

I agree. I'm always surprised when members express their beliefs that the way to select instructors is to time the most experienced drivers and choose the fastest!