Autocross
Racer
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
From: Los Altos, CA
CP,
If I understand your goal, to learn to drive better on the street, I totally agree with ard (aka alex), the BMW car control clinic is one of the best ways to learn the limits of your car. It is an actual class where you drive your own car, on a closed parking lot course. When I took the class it was at Candle Stick Park, aka Monster Park. They do many things that give you a feel for your car in real world situations. For example, they will set up a skid pad area where you drive around an oval. You drive faster and faster around the oval, set the steering wheel and the use only throttle on and off to go around the oval. It is a real trip to see how much a difference weight transfer makes in getting a car around a turn. They also do a reaction section where you drive the car full throttle toward "y" on a course with a cone barrier at the end of each branch. At the last minute a directional light tells you which branch of the "y" you need to go into. So you practice feeling what a last minute avoidance will feel like and also see how quickly the car will stop after that weight transfer/avoidance move.
Anyway, I also agree with everybody who says that autox will make you more comfortable in your car, but with actual instruction I think you will get there faster.
Does anybody know if PCA has something like the BMW CCC? I was looking on the PCA_GGR website and I did not see anything.
Regards,
If I understand your goal, to learn to drive better on the street, I totally agree with ard (aka alex), the BMW car control clinic is one of the best ways to learn the limits of your car. It is an actual class where you drive your own car, on a closed parking lot course. When I took the class it was at Candle Stick Park, aka Monster Park. They do many things that give you a feel for your car in real world situations. For example, they will set up a skid pad area where you drive around an oval. You drive faster and faster around the oval, set the steering wheel and the use only throttle on and off to go around the oval. It is a real trip to see how much a difference weight transfer makes in getting a car around a turn. They also do a reaction section where you drive the car full throttle toward "y" on a course with a cone barrier at the end of each branch. At the last minute a directional light tells you which branch of the "y" you need to go into. So you practice feeling what a last minute avoidance will feel like and also see how quickly the car will stop after that weight transfer/avoidance move.
Anyway, I also agree with everybody who says that autox will make you more comfortable in your car, but with actual instruction I think you will get there faster.
Does anybody know if PCA has something like the BMW CCC? I was looking on the PCA_GGR website and I did not see anything.
Regards,
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Joined: Oct 2003
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From: New Jersey
Each area is different. NNJR has an anual Car Control Clinic. Great stuff. We do both clockwise and counter clockwise skid pads along with slalom and breaking exercises. It is a little tough on the car but teaches you quite a bit.
I would check your local PCA chapter and if they don't have one you should suggest it.
I know NNJR will accept applications from other regions if the event doesn't sell out for the locals. I highly recommend it.
I would check your local PCA chapter and if they don't have one you should suggest it.
I know NNJR will accept applications from other regions if the event doesn't sell out for the locals. I highly recommend it.
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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Arlen (and Pong): GGR (Golden Gate Region of PCA) and PCA Zone 7 do a 2 day autocross school each spring that is the closest it comes out here to a car control clininc. You start with a skid pad and then move to different excercises on day 1. Day 2 is to run two different autox courses multiple times to learn what it's like.
I believe autox is a great way to learn to control your car in difficult situations. I certainly spun a few times in autocrosses while learning. But to me that's the point. Learn what it's like where you and your car can't get hurt. After a year (8ish events) my wife and I started to do DEs. I wanted to move to DE because I felt I had a good chance of getting around the track without damage based on what I had learned in autox and I hated 8 minutes of driving in an 8 hour autox day.
I believe autox is a great way to learn to control your car in difficult situations. I certainly spun a few times in autocrosses while learning. But to me that's the point. Learn what it's like where you and your car can't get hurt. After a year (8ish events) my wife and I started to do DEs. I wanted to move to DE because I felt I had a good chance of getting around the track without damage based on what I had learned in autox and I hated 8 minutes of driving in an 8 hour autox day.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 867
Likes: 273
From: NorCal
Tom,
that is the biggest drawback of auto-x that I have heard. You spend time preparing your car and you spend the entire day at the course, for no more than 4 - 5 2 minute runs, whereas in track driving you get 2 - 3 20 - 30 minute driving sessions per day.
that is the biggest drawback of auto-x that I have heard. You spend time preparing your car and you spend the entire day at the course, for no more than 4 - 5 2 minute runs, whereas in track driving you get 2 - 3 20 - 30 minute driving sessions per day.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,507
Likes: 0
From: Dayton, OH
My first performance driving event was a DE. I was quite nervous at first but found it to be an excellent tool for learning how to drive your car correctly. The instruction was top notch (go for a ride with Greg Fishman and see what I mean - who needs an amusement park ride!!) and the course was novice friendly (Putnam Park in Indiana) with very little to hit. I spun once but in all it was a great weekend. It probably would have been a little easier transition if I had done autox first but certainly wasn't needed.
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Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,122
Likes: 337
From: Los Altos, CA
Arlene,
I did the BMW car control clinic with my M5. I actually did 2 more DE type of events.
M5 Driving Experience: 2 days event compliment of BMW for buying an M5. We spent 2 days in South Carolina in their M5s. Great fun.
AMG Challenge at Infenion Raceway: one gets to drive all of the AMG cars in various exercises. The crowning moment was riding shot gun with pro-instructors doing hot laps. Closest thing to being in a real auto race as one can get. My instructor was Adam Andretti (Marios' nephew). Man that guy can drive. I asked him what is his favorite street car on a track (he was working for MB AMG that day) and he said: Porsche Turbos, without a doubt. That sealed the deal for me to get a Porsche.
CP
I did the BMW car control clinic with my M5. I actually did 2 more DE type of events.
M5 Driving Experience: 2 days event compliment of BMW for buying an M5. We spent 2 days in South Carolina in their M5s. Great fun.
AMG Challenge at Infenion Raceway: one gets to drive all of the AMG cars in various exercises. The crowning moment was riding shot gun with pro-instructors doing hot laps. Closest thing to being in a real auto race as one can get. My instructor was Adam Andretti (Marios' nephew). Man that guy can drive. I asked him what is his favorite street car on a track (he was working for MB AMG that day) and he said: Porsche Turbos, without a doubt. That sealed the deal for me to get a Porsche.
CP
Last edited by CP; Sep 23, 2005 at 01:13 AM.
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco
CP,
There's several more PCA AXs in the area this year:
9/24 (LPR) at Marina
10/1 (RED) at Sonoma
10/8 (GGR) at Alameda
10/15-16 Zone 7 at Millerton Lake
10/29 (GGR) at Alameda
All the info is on pca-ggr.org, red.pca.org, or lpr.pca.org
As others have mentioned the schools are really excellent. GGR does a 1 day beginner's school in February, and the zone does a 2 day school in the summer. I've been a student and now instructor at both, and you'll get a lot of seat time in these.
Even if you're not out there to compete, auto-x is timed so you can compare yourself to others in similar cars.
There's several more PCA AXs in the area this year:
9/24 (LPR) at Marina
10/1 (RED) at Sonoma
10/8 (GGR) at Alameda
10/15-16 Zone 7 at Millerton Lake
10/29 (GGR) at Alameda
All the info is on pca-ggr.org, red.pca.org, or lpr.pca.org
As others have mentioned the schools are really excellent. GGR does a 1 day beginner's school in February, and the zone does a 2 day school in the summer. I've been a student and now instructor at both, and you'll get a lot of seat time in these.
Even if you're not out there to compete, auto-x is timed so you can compare yourself to others in similar cars.
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From: SF Bay Area
I highly encourage drivers to learn at autox. Here is how i think of it as someone who does both.
- I prefer autox over DE's. Simply put, autox has virtually no danger therefore i drive my car at 10/10 of mine & its potential. At a DE i drive at 8/10 of my potential and probably 6/10 of the cars.
- In autox you can practice. We teach things from understanding the fastest line to counter steering to throttle steering to hand position on the wheel to trail braking to looking way ahead.... And you can actually practice them without risk of damaging your car or injuring yourself.
- The DE experience is great and in many ways superior. The seat time in a DE is great. In a day of autox'ing you'll likely get 8-10 mins of seat time. But those 8-10 mins are a great learning experience.
Lastly, the boxster is a fast autox car, but not the fastest. I rather think it is the easiest to drive fast - but certainly not the fastest car.
Come the PCA GGR autox's. We just had one at Monster Park last weekend.
Cheers,
Boris
- I prefer autox over DE's. Simply put, autox has virtually no danger therefore i drive my car at 10/10 of mine & its potential. At a DE i drive at 8/10 of my potential and probably 6/10 of the cars.
- In autox you can practice. We teach things from understanding the fastest line to counter steering to throttle steering to hand position on the wheel to trail braking to looking way ahead.... And you can actually practice them without risk of damaging your car or injuring yourself.
- The DE experience is great and in many ways superior. The seat time in a DE is great. In a day of autox'ing you'll likely get 8-10 mins of seat time. But those 8-10 mins are a great learning experience.
Lastly, the boxster is a fast autox car, but not the fastest. I rather think it is the easiest to drive fast - but certainly not the fastest car.
Come the PCA GGR autox's. We just had one at Monster Park last weekend.
Cheers,
Boris
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From: Boston, MA
I've autocrossed for 6 seasons and I instruct at Porsche autocrosses locally, so I do have some experience. I'll give my take here.
Autocrossing should be _required_ for anyone with any type of aspiration to own a faster car, let alone for the actual owners. It teaches you so many skills that will make a difference between life and death on the street, literally, that it's not even funny. You see, you deal with the situations dozens of times in a day of autocrossing that you might see ones on the street right before the big impact. You lern to react properly. You also learn the limits of your car.
Not to dive deeply into the theories of car control, I strongly believe that double-clutching and all the other wonderful stuff is secondary. I can't double-clutch to save my life, but I did get an FTD at the last event. You will learn to feel the car. You'll find your tools to control it later.
I personally drive a Miata, which I consider to be possible the best autocross car when value is concerned. They are cheap, easy to work on, have huge stable aftermarket, known set ups that work. Having said that, I strongly advocate autocrossing what you drive on the street. Which would be RUF. 993s have notoriously different dynamics and require different input than many street cars. Might as well learn in your own car.
Finally, and most importantly... it's actually fun, absolutely safe and as addictive as drugs.
Autocrossing should be _required_ for anyone with any type of aspiration to own a faster car, let alone for the actual owners. It teaches you so many skills that will make a difference between life and death on the street, literally, that it's not even funny. You see, you deal with the situations dozens of times in a day of autocrossing that you might see ones on the street right before the big impact. You lern to react properly. You also learn the limits of your car.
Not to dive deeply into the theories of car control, I strongly believe that double-clutching and all the other wonderful stuff is secondary. I can't double-clutch to save my life, but I did get an FTD at the last event. You will learn to feel the car. You'll find your tools to control it later.
I personally drive a Miata, which I consider to be possible the best autocross car when value is concerned. They are cheap, easy to work on, have huge stable aftermarket, known set ups that work. Having said that, I strongly advocate autocrossing what you drive on the street. Which would be RUF. 993s have notoriously different dynamics and require different input than many street cars. Might as well learn in your own car.
Finally, and most importantly... it's actually fun, absolutely safe and as addictive as drugs.
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From: Boston, MA
Originally Posted by Dudley
I was feeling a bit queasy already and then I rode with Mike as the driver and I almost lost my lunch.
Is there any way to reduce the nauseous feeling resulting from a combination of G-Forces and adrenaline? (Other than going slower.
) Any former astronauts here?
Is there any way to reduce the nauseous feeling resulting from a combination of G-Forces and adrenaline? (Other than going slower.
) Any former astronauts here?In all seriousness, it's adrenaline-related. That will go away after a few events.
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From: So.CA
Hi Pong,
Ditto on all the praises of AX regarding car control. I must confess, however, that the short run times (compared to DEs) are a huge deterrant to my attending AXs, though.
Not to mention that an AX w/o good instruction is arguably worse than a DE with good instruction. A careful, patient, disciplined approach to DE with good instructors gives one far more seat time to practice and refine newly acquired skills; and on a short/tight track even better. Willow Springs' "Streets" is one of the best learning venues around, IMHO. Plus, there is a skipdpad adjacent to this short track where clubs (like the Alfa club, for example) often set up coned courses and rotate this segment into the day as a "handling clinic" ...then wet it down which really "accelerates" the learning process
And yes, take the Ruf. It's the only real way to learn the car and how to control it. Hope to see you out here ...and give me a holler if you intend to!
Edward
Ditto on all the praises of AX regarding car control. I must confess, however, that the short run times (compared to DEs) are a huge deterrant to my attending AXs, though.
Not to mention that an AX w/o good instruction is arguably worse than a DE with good instruction. A careful, patient, disciplined approach to DE with good instructors gives one far more seat time to practice and refine newly acquired skills; and on a short/tight track even better. Willow Springs' "Streets" is one of the best learning venues around, IMHO. Plus, there is a skipdpad adjacent to this short track where clubs (like the Alfa club, for example) often set up coned courses and rotate this segment into the day as a "handling clinic" ...then wet it down which really "accelerates" the learning process
And yes, take the Ruf. It's the only real way to learn the car and how to control it. Hope to see you out here ...and give me a holler if you intend to!
Edward