How does your car handle if the kinematic toe is off?
07-10-2005, 04:49 PM
#16
RL Technical Advisor
Hi:
This is a great topic since these cars are sooo sensitive to this adjustment. From what I see in our shop as well as my telephone & e-mail traffic, there are a LOT of 993's out there with bad alignments for varying reasons or another.
I'd just like to add that shops-dealers can run into trouble when a lowered car is brought in for alignment due to the factory tool's lack of range. Needless to say, this is a question of degree (pun intended as I've always wanted to say that) since each car sits at a different ride height.
There are different solutions for reading kinematic toe when the factory guage is at its limit, or out of range. We use a digital protractor (calibrated against the Porsche tool) for cars that are too low for the factory guage to facilitate this.
For cars that are out of adjustment range, ERP makes a special kinematic link with rod ends that offers far more adjustment range than the OEM kinematic toe links have. I have pics of these links on the 993 page of our website since we sell/install a lot of these.
I cannot stress how important a proper alignment is on a 993 since these cars simply do NOT suffer fools in this regard. You will never realize how competant these cars are and how well they handle without a good alignment and its well worth the effort to seek out and drive wherever you must to have this done right.
This is a great topic since these cars are sooo sensitive to this adjustment. From what I see in our shop as well as my telephone & e-mail traffic, there are a LOT of 993's out there with bad alignments for varying reasons or another.
I'd just like to add that shops-dealers can run into trouble when a lowered car is brought in for alignment due to the factory tool's lack of range. Needless to say, this is a question of degree (pun intended as I've always wanted to say that) since each car sits at a different ride height.
There are different solutions for reading kinematic toe when the factory guage is at its limit, or out of range. We use a digital protractor (calibrated against the Porsche tool) for cars that are too low for the factory guage to facilitate this.
For cars that are out of adjustment range, ERP makes a special kinematic link with rod ends that offers far more adjustment range than the OEM kinematic toe links have. I have pics of these links on the 993 page of our website since we sell/install a lot of these.
I cannot stress how important a proper alignment is on a 993 since these cars simply do NOT suffer fools in this regard. You will never realize how competant these cars are and how well they handle without a good alignment and its well worth the effort to seek out and drive wherever you must to have this done right.
07-10-2005, 04:58 PM
#17
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Aloha Steve,
Have you ever used the kinematic toe gauge sold by Autometrics? I bought one as way to get my car aligned out here and was wondering if you could relate how thier tool calibrates against the factory gauge. I have used it, but have not been very satisfied with the results.
Thanks
Have you ever used the kinematic toe gauge sold by Autometrics? I bought one as way to get my car aligned out here and was wondering if you could relate how thier tool calibrates against the factory gauge. I have used it, but have not been very satisfied with the results.
Thanks
07-10-2005, 09:16 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Another great Steve Weiner point to ponder...
I have heard great things about the " ERP makes a special kinematic link with rod ends that offers far more adjustment range than the OEM kinematic toe links." Also note that the 993 RS has special parts that somewhat mimic those below.
And guess what folks...that ugly word SYSTEM come up again. I am certain that if you want to do it right you do the following. Here are some rtetail prices off ERP's web site:
ERP Rear Controlk Link Monoball, 2 $ $169.23 ea, $338.46
ERP Rear Toe Adjusting Link, 2 @ $269.23 ea, $538.46
ERP Kinematic Toe Link, 2 @ $253.84 ea, $507.68
ERP rear camber link, 2 @ $253.84, $507.68
ERP Rear Solid mounts for suspension carriage, 8 @ $43.08, or $344.64
Total Parts: $2,236.92
Labor estimate, 10 Hours $ $95/Hr. $950
Grand Finale, $3,186.92
The question as always is, is it worth it? I'll bet it is if you want to fine tune your handling and get ever, ever closer to the 993RS specs! Now add a Guard LSD. or maybe a Porsche Motorsports LSD, change the front uprights rights to EVO uprights, add in trick Bilstein shocks with custom valving and throw in some trick springs, and add ERP Monoballs front and rear. Let's not forget adjustable sway bars while we are at it, and the RS tie rod ends!
Now you are cooking! This is a perfect example of the slippery slope, ain't it grand!
And guess what folks...that ugly word SYSTEM come up again. I am certain that if you want to do it right you do the following. Here are some rtetail prices off ERP's web site:
ERP Rear Controlk Link Monoball, 2 $ $169.23 ea, $338.46
ERP Rear Toe Adjusting Link, 2 @ $269.23 ea, $538.46
ERP Kinematic Toe Link, 2 @ $253.84 ea, $507.68
ERP rear camber link, 2 @ $253.84, $507.68
ERP Rear Solid mounts for suspension carriage, 8 @ $43.08, or $344.64
Total Parts: $2,236.92
Labor estimate, 10 Hours $ $95/Hr. $950
Grand Finale, $3,186.92
The question as always is, is it worth it? I'll bet it is if you want to fine tune your handling and get ever, ever closer to the 993RS specs! Now add a Guard LSD. or maybe a Porsche Motorsports LSD, change the front uprights rights to EVO uprights, add in trick Bilstein shocks with custom valving and throw in some trick springs, and add ERP Monoballs front and rear. Let's not forget adjustable sway bars while we are at it, and the RS tie rod ends!
Now you are cooking! This is a perfect example of the slippery slope, ain't it grand!
Last edited by Martin S.; 07-10-2005 at 09:34 PM.
07-10-2005, 10:13 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
A thousand curses on you Martin 
07-10-2005, 10:42 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Just trying to help..................
Now how can I talk wifey into this "investment?"
On a serious note...lots of the ERP stuff I mention is Porsche factory OEM for the 993RS car.
That leads me to my quest, "Making a silk purse out of a sow's ear!"...had I known what I know now, I would have tried to get a 993RS car into the country before the dollar fell on its face......rembering about 5 1/2 years ago I did pay about $60,000 for my 993 car. For a few $ more I coulda, woulda, shoulda!
Forgive me Alan...I know not what I am doing!
On a serious note...lots of the ERP stuff I mention is Porsche factory OEM for the 993RS car.
That leads me to my quest, "Making a silk purse out of a sow's ear!"...had I known what I know now, I would have tried to get a 993RS car into the country before the dollar fell on its face......rembering about 5 1/2 years ago I did pay about $60,000 for my 993 car. For a few $ more I coulda, woulda, shoulda!
Forgive me Alan...I know not what I am doing!
07-11-2005, 12:35 AM
#23
RL Technical Advisor
Martin:
First,.....the 993 RS (and Clubsport) did NOT have any monoballs aside from upper strut & shock mounts. All of the suspension links are bushed in a harder rubber than is OEM on the regualr 993's.
Last, I would not recommend installing monoballs in ANY street-driven Porsche with the exception of a few places that do not compromise streetability,......
IMHO, monoballs are for race cars and rubber are for street cars and if you doubt what I say, get a ride in a 993 so equipped before any $$$ is spent on such things.
993RS's cannot be imported under the current Federal "Cars of Interest" laws for street use. We have a 993RSCS here that was imported for "off-highway use" only. Been There, Tried That.
First,.....the 993 RS (and Clubsport) did NOT have any monoballs aside from upper strut & shock mounts. All of the suspension links are bushed in a harder rubber than is OEM on the regualr 993's.
Last, I would not recommend installing monoballs in ANY street-driven Porsche with the exception of a few places that do not compromise streetability,......
IMHO, monoballs are for race cars and rubber are for street cars and if you doubt what I say, get a ride in a 993 so equipped before any $$$ is spent on such things.
993RS's cannot be imported under the current Federal "Cars of Interest" laws for street use. We have a 993RSCS here that was imported for "off-highway use" only. Been There, Tried That.
07-11-2005, 09:52 AM
#24
Race Car
Steve,
About a week ago I was driving behind what it seemed to be a yellow 993 RS. It had the right wings, wheels, ride height, Badge, etc, etc...So..this wasn't a true RS? Just a rebadged 993?
I was driving on my stealth Audi A4 and gave the guy a thumb up as I drove by him.
So, there are NO 993 RS in the U.S.?? Did I get that right?
About a week ago I was driving behind what it seemed to be a yellow 993 RS. It had the right wings, wheels, ride height, Badge, etc, etc...So..this wasn't a true RS? Just a rebadged 993?
I was driving on my stealth Audi A4 and gave the guy a thumb up as I drove by him.
So, there are NO 993 RS in the U.S.?? Did I get that right?
07-11-2005, 10:40 AM
#25
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Cabrio993,
Unfortunately, it wasn't a true RS. At least not by the Porsche factory. It is my car and it has been meticulously "converted" to RS specs including the engine, transmission and suspension. All body panels and lights are RS correct including fuel tank, wheels and interior. What I can say is that the real RS must be a great car. I can drive my clone on the street, switch to Michelin Pilot Sport Cups, drive out to Road Atlanta and drive with anything that isn't a purpose built race car.
Steve is right about the alignment. It can make a huge difference on the track. I am sure that if you do hard street or mountain driving the same is true. Most Porsche dealerships, in Atlanta anyway, have the proper gauges and the manual tells you how to set the kinematic toe on a lowered car. I also have the Autometrics gauge and have checked it several times against the factory gauges and it is dead on. Read the alignment section in the factory manual and see if you can work with a dealership mechanic to set up your car. They have great equipment and, if approached correctly, are willing to help you achieve your goals. Also, keep a printout of alignments and take notes on each one. When you go back in for another alignment bring in the old printout and your notes and try to engage the technician in a technical discussion. I think you get better quality if you are able to appreciate their skills.
Hank
Unfortunately, it wasn't a true RS. At least not by the Porsche factory. It is my car and it has been meticulously "converted" to RS specs including the engine, transmission and suspension. All body panels and lights are RS correct including fuel tank, wheels and interior. What I can say is that the real RS must be a great car. I can drive my clone on the street, switch to Michelin Pilot Sport Cups, drive out to Road Atlanta and drive with anything that isn't a purpose built race car.
Steve is right about the alignment. It can make a huge difference on the track. I am sure that if you do hard street or mountain driving the same is true. Most Porsche dealerships, in Atlanta anyway, have the proper gauges and the manual tells you how to set the kinematic toe on a lowered car. I also have the Autometrics gauge and have checked it several times against the factory gauges and it is dead on. Read the alignment section in the factory manual and see if you can work with a dealership mechanic to set up your car. They have great equipment and, if approached correctly, are willing to help you achieve your goals. Also, keep a printout of alignments and take notes on each one. When you go back in for another alignment bring in the old printout and your notes and try to engage the technician in a technical discussion. I think you get better quality if you are able to appreciate their skills.
Hank
07-11-2005, 12:22 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Good to hear from Hank...Steve SWeiner writes, "Martin:
First,.....the 993 RS (and Clubsport) did NOT have any monoballs aside from upper strut & shock mounts. All of the suspension links are bushed in a harder rubber than is OEM on the regualr 993's.
I must respectfully agree...but the 993RS camber arm is longer, is it not? I am too lazy to look it up in PET, maybe later today. Be that as it may, that rear suspension set up from ERP looks mighty tasty. Also I have heard that you could install the camber arm as stage 1. Don't know this to be true, but a local "wrench" has woven this tale for me.
Last, I would not recommend installing monoballs in ANY street-driven Porsche with the exception of a few places that do not compromise streetability,......
I have ERP Monoballs front and rear installed with my PSS9 suspension. It is more noisy than stock...but the car seems to handle extremely well at the track. I don't notice the noise much on the steet...and when I do, I think, that's those monballs clicking around a bit, they are just trying to say hello!
IMHO, monoballs are for race cars and rubber are for street cars and if you doubt what I say, get a ride in a 993 so equipped before any $$$ is spent on such things.
993RS's cannot be imported under the current Federal "Cars of Interest" laws for street use. We have a 993RSCS here that was imported for "off-highway use" only. Been There, Tried That.
In SoCal, a chap name of Aubrey has a 993RS (Track car) with a 993RSCS aero package. What a work of art. He trailers it to events...I am certain it will never see the street.
First,.....the 993 RS (and Clubsport) did NOT have any monoballs aside from upper strut & shock mounts. All of the suspension links are bushed in a harder rubber than is OEM on the regualr 993's.
I must respectfully agree...but the 993RS camber arm is longer, is it not? I am too lazy to look it up in PET, maybe later today. Be that as it may, that rear suspension set up from ERP looks mighty tasty. Also I have heard that you could install the camber arm as stage 1. Don't know this to be true, but a local "wrench" has woven this tale for me.
Last, I would not recommend installing monoballs in ANY street-driven Porsche with the exception of a few places that do not compromise streetability,......
I have ERP Monoballs front and rear installed with my PSS9 suspension. It is more noisy than stock...but the car seems to handle extremely well at the track. I don't notice the noise much on the steet...and when I do, I think, that's those monballs clicking around a bit, they are just trying to say hello!
IMHO, monoballs are for race cars and rubber are for street cars and if you doubt what I say, get a ride in a 993 so equipped before any $$$ is spent on such things.
993RS's cannot be imported under the current Federal "Cars of Interest" laws for street use. We have a 993RSCS here that was imported for "off-highway use" only. Been There, Tried That.
In SoCal, a chap name of Aubrey has a 993RS (Track car) with a 993RSCS aero package. What a work of art. He trailers it to events...I am certain it will never see the street.
07-11-2005, 03:13 PM
#27
Technical Guru
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The 993RS is eligible for "Show and Display" so if you can get one to pass the EPA/state emissions sniff test regulations for the model year than you can drive one 2500 miles every 12 months! Does the 993RS have O2 sensors and catalytic converters? If so, it shouldn't be that difficult...
07-11-2005, 03:37 PM
#28
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There is a company in Texas (Dallas or Houston) that has converted at least 1 RS to US street legal specs. There is a guy in the Porsche Club here in Atlanta who almost had them bring one in and convert it for him. The quoted cost of the conversion alone was in the $10k range. Ultimately he bought a new GT3 instead.
Hank
Hank
07-12-2005, 12:06 AM
#29
Race Car
Hi Hank!
I must admit that you had me fooled then. I was behind you on Mansel Rd. Exit heading south on GA400. I was driving my A4 and admiring your car...wishing I was driving my Cab..
Small world...Love your RS!! You did a great job with it!
My Cab is lowered to RS +10mm RH. I have had 4 alignments so far due to changes on my suspension setup. Every time I get a different car back. I am going for a 5th alignment or more like a front Toe check since I just replaced my steering wheel and now it's off center since the groves on both steering wheels did n ot exactly match on center. I could have bought my own alignment rig by now!
I must admit that you had me fooled then. I was behind you on Mansel Rd. Exit heading south on GA400. I was driving my A4 and admiring your car...wishing I was driving my Cab..
Small world...Love your RS!! You did a great job with it!
My Cab is lowered to RS +10mm RH. I have had 4 alignments so far due to changes on my suspension setup. Every time I get a different car back. I am going for a 5th alignment or more like a front Toe check since I just replaced my steering wheel and now it's off center since the groves on both steering wheels did n ot exactly match on center. I could have bought my own alignment rig by now!
07-12-2005, 10:02 AM
#30
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Cabrio,
I am on that road a lot as I commute between an office in Alpharetta and an office at PDK airport. I don't know who you are using in town, but Performance Imports does a nice job of alignments as does Jim Ellis Porsche. The advantage of using the dealership is the ready availability of loaner cars. I just had mine done last week in preparation for a track event last weekend. They did a perfect job. By the way, I did buy an alignment rig and it just wasn't worth the hassle of doing it myself.
Hope to see you around town,
Hank
I am on that road a lot as I commute between an office in Alpharetta and an office at PDK airport. I don't know who you are using in town, but Performance Imports does a nice job of alignments as does Jim Ellis Porsche. The advantage of using the dealership is the ready availability of loaner cars. I just had mine done last week in preparation for a track event last weekend. They did a perfect job. By the way, I did buy an alignment rig and it just wasn't worth the hassle of doing it myself.
Hope to see you around town,
Hank