Christer, in my dictionary, it is the car responding to your foot's pressure on the throttle..Either it is slow to respond, or fast, or average. Better throttle response means you feel a "happier" engine. Exactly what you would experience with LWF or a Supercharger or a properly optimized map on your ECU, as far as timing is concerned. Net net, increased timing would do that.
In a turbocharged system, better intake paths or smaller turbine would do that as well.

 

If I understand this correctly, both Rennsport and AWE are using GIAC chips but the fuel mapping is different based on each vendor's parameters...

My interest in this is not Max horsepower or torque but if there is an improvement in the torque curve, one should be able to see this on a dynograph when compared to a graph from a stock motor....

So to me the definitive answer to this ongoing debate over weither or not a chip is worth anything is a dynograph comparing a stock motor to one running one of these chips....

There seems to be a reluctance from vendors to provide some form of proof of any improvements gained by their chips other than just saying there is...

I challenge the vendors on this board to post dynographs of before and after results....By posting Dynographs you do not have to reveal your proprietary fuel maps and we can put this to rest....

 

"If I understand this correclty, both Rennsport and AWE are using GIAC chips but the fuel mapping is different based on each vendor's parameters..."

More than likely, it's just different timing maps set for various octanes.
Timing changes (increased advances) produce the noticeable effects,
i.e. better throttle response.

 

Loren, I am very sorry to say this, but I do not believe that you are that ignorant. It appears that there is an agenda of some sort here, which I do not understand. Maybe you can explain it some day.

I find your musings on the chips to be directly opposite to reality as I understand and experience it. Now, I'm not an expert, nor do I feel that a cheap is any sort of panacea for a non-forced induction cars, but what you are saying about the chips never made sense to me. Surprising, too, as your other opinions seem to be fine.

Do I understand correctly that you sell your own chips? Please answer this question here.

Please also don't take this as a personal attack, it's not. I'm off my soap box now, but I felt this needed to be said long time ago.

The chip is designed to be all things to all people. All people in this case want low emissions, better gas mileage, less chance of stalling, etc, etc, etc. The enhine lower cover is put on by the great and all-knowing Porsche engineers for a well know reason too. Nevertheless, most of us discarded that piece of trash long time ago. As such, how can you possibly say that the "average" chip put in at the factory is a "well designed system"? It's well designed for intended application. Those who want to use their cars differently can very well program their chips differently, no?

Finally... I'd love to have Steve and other vendors disclose what's in their chips. I aslo understand why they would never do this. I've had several conversations with Jim Conforti (for those who know that name) 4-5 years ago, and I understand perfectly well what intellectual property actually is. So, boys and girls, you're buying a reputation in the case of a chip. Decide what's it worth to you and go with that.

 

"I've had several conversations with Jim Conforti (for those who know that name) 4-5 years ago, and I understand perfectly well what intellectual property actually is." - nile13 -

Now that you've raised the subject. All performance chips violate Porsche's copyrights
by COPYING their microcode, modifying it, and reselling it.

"The chip is designed to be all things to all people. All people in this case want low emissions" - nile13 -

This is the typical marketing hype used to promote performance chips.
If you review the torque curve versus AFRs, you'll see that max torque which occurs
at 12.6 is basically the same for an AFR of 14.7 (ideal for emissions Lambda=1).
Check here ( www.systemsc.com/graphs.htm ) for the graphs explaining this.

There was a time when emissions control resulted in a less optimum fuel injection system,
but not now (notwithstanding the CAT & other emission things). Without disconnecting
the O2 sensor, you'll NOT have much of an effect from increased fuel input.

With regard to selling chips: Have you found me promoting them here on Rennlist, elsewhere,
or on my web site? An agenda, yes, to de-mystify what performance chips really do.
I frequently remove them for my customers and re-install stock ones to solve running
& emission problems, So, posting info should help potential chip buyers have a better
understanding of their purchase. Isn't that what a forum is for?

 

Mike,

If I read item 2 in http://www.systemsc.com/FAQ.htm correctly, then answer should be no:

=== quote from http://www.systemsc.com/FAQ.htm ===
2. Does Systems Consulting modify any fuel injection units for increased performance?
Systems Consulting does not modify nor does it setup any OEM unit for increased
performance that it stocks in inventory. If a unit is sent in for rebuilding and the
unit has a special chip, that chip will not be changed or modified.
=== end of quote ===

I thought that it makes perfect sense to have original engine cover ON if you drive your car in winter/cold climate. Granted, very few 993 are being driven in that season.

 

Loren, I believe I asked a very straight forward "yes or no" question - "are you selling chips?". The followup question will be "Are you selling chips for 993?" Thank you in advance for answering these.

Now, onto copyright laws. I do believe that aftermarket chips infringe on Porsche code. I do not see for a second how this is pertinent to the discussion here. Could you please explain?

Once again, I do not wish to discuss max torque. We've already established that. Why have you decided to bring it up again? I strongly beleive that you know the difference between a max torque and a torque curve. If not, please let me know.

 

Alex, as you probably know, I drive my 993 year around and the temps in the past two winters have been in the teens, if not lower on occasion.
I believe John.D drives his year around as well, and he's an hour north of me.

 

Alexander,

Great gif! Which track is that?

 

If this is the case, I stand corrected....

 

Thanks, but this sequence of photos is all thanks to Art(from fandsenterprises.com) - I was lucky to do 360 in front of him, when he volunteered as a cornerworker on that last day for FSR DE.
It's at VIR North - top of the climb after 7.

 

Nice. I thought it might be VIR. Not to make light of your spin/slide, but it made me laugh when I saw it.

 

I don't know who Loren is nor what exactly he sells (no pun intended), but he is a board sponsor so if he wants to promote his products he can do so, although I have not seen him doing it. I don't think he has to answer a question if he chooses not to, and it does not mean he is hiding anything, maybe he only answers questions asked in a nice way . Loren is not misinforming the board, and his information is rather correct, I think most tuners would agree.

On the other hand I don't agree with his simplification of the ECU tuning process and putting everyone in the same basket, as each tuner knows how to better or worse push timing to the limits of knock sensing based on certain octane ratings and AFRs and achieve better torque across a certain powerband. This is how races are being won since the early nineties (I am simplifying too )

 

I'm with Christer on this one. I don't understand "better throttle response". If you push down the gas pedal and the engine rpms increase faster (what I interpret as a better throttle rersponse) the only way this can happen is if you have more power (that's basic physics and not electronics). I don't care if it happens because of a super charger, ignition mapping or what, but to happen faster comes only because more power is being generated.

The only other way I can think of it is as follows: you are putt-putting along at 2k rpm in 5th gear and you stomp on the gas. Do you instantly accelerate? No, you have a lag and things slowly build. Why? Beacuse you have poor torque/hp at 2k rpm. Do the same thing at 4.5k rpm in 3rd gear and you get a "better throttle response" because you actually have some power at that rpm.

 

Tom, in case the question is addressed to me (if not, sorry to intervene), I did not say that mid range torque was not improved with an ECU retune, because I know it is, I also (think I) know that it is timing driven . I mentioned earlier that "throttle response improvement" was reported rather than higher hp.

In response to your question:
Yes and No.

No: When you install a LWF, do you have more torque at the same RPM? No. Does it rev faster, and react faster to your sudden foot pressure? Yes. This is throttle response, and it is driven by lower rotating mass inertia and not incremental torque at a certain RPM.

Yes: you do have a better power curve, but not necessarily higher maximum absolute torque reading, back to my point on my earlier thread.

In both cases, remapping your chip is a great modification as you are customizing an otherwise generic ECU to your driving needs and octane ratings.