Brett - 1996 C4

I'll echo the question marks. Any ideas from anyone why the shop would say that? I thought the HDs and PSS9s (both including sways) were a pretty similar install. But seeing as how I haven't done either of these yet, don't put any weight on my opinion.

Baggerdude

Danny...

I spoke with Gert. He said that the collars would not be necessary as the HD Bilsteins that are included in his kit have an extra 30 mm (or so) of threads on them. The extra threads would accomplish the same effect as the collars. So that's not the problem.

Also, there are various heights that this kit can be set at (IF I am not confused here) that run from US height, ROW height and RS height. I guess that using the extra threads one can effectively alter the height a great deal.

Gert suggested putting the car back up on the lift and see if we can duplicate the noise as the wheel is nearly at full lock. I'll peruse this with my shop.

Thanx, all.....

DJF1

I'm sorry about the confusion or so it seems. My understanding about the collars that have been discussed on this board from Hergeheimer is that they set the shock/spring "properly" and achieve the ride height you desire.

Like I said in my original post I do know for a fact that Gert's HD's can lower the car to RS height. That is not the issue. The issue is the length of the spring in comparison with the shock when its set at RS height and fully extended. The spring is shorter so it becomes loose when the shock decompresses that is why you have the noise on bumps. The spring reseats itself on the upper perch and the lower collars! That is not right for me! Some people on this very board 4 years ago when the HD's came around used to use wire to tie the top of the spring to the upper perch! Some people maybe comfortable with that but personally I'm not. Like I said I have witnessed first hand the install of exactly your combo ( HD from Gert and Euro M030 springs). The lowering collars that came with the HD's are the ones on the lower part of the shock by turning them around they move up and down thus adjusting the ride height. My understanding is that these collars are not the same as the Hergeheimers. If Gert has included different collars from back then in his kit, I do not know that.

So yes you can do whatever height you want. They keyword for me here is "properly". Put the car on the lift, then examine if the spring moves up and down freely or has a space between the top of the spring and the upper perch when the shock is fully extended. If this is so, I bet money that this is the cause of your noise for the reasons I mentioned.

joolsbourne

I put the same set up on my C4S with no unusual noises or problems. I set my shocks (actually they came set to correct length, cheers Gert!) as specified and had no problems.
When I had the alignment done I was easily within the tolerance of the manual for ride height, front to rear and side to side and didn't require any adjustments.
I would be suspicous of your wrench given the fallout you are experiencing. Especially as you comment that they had problems. I wouldn't really say that this job is too taxing, especially for a proffesional (like I assume they are).
Further investigation required!

Baggerdude

Danny.... thanx. That does clear up what we were speaking about. It was confusing, but I believe I have the image in my mind now. You are correct. I do want the car lowered "properly" by all means. (plus the installation was nearly 3000 USD!!). I have emailed the shop and we will see what can be done. I suggested even before your last email that we put the car back on the lift and see if the springs are loose from the perches. And also crank the front wheels and rotate them to see if there are any sounds there... as I have on hard right/left. Anyway, I'm on the same wave length now with your suggestions, Danny. Thanx again.

Jools.... I agree.

Cheers...........

Dr. No

Exsqueeze me, they charged you $3k to install the stuff you got from Gert???? And you have clunking? Who are these people?

97Targa

Same set up I've got on my '97 Targa. No clunking, clanking or other wierd sounds. Works WAY BETTER than stock and/or mismatched components.

Baggerdude

Dr. NO....

Hey, I admit I'm a bit of a 'sucker' here, but I usually believe folks do the best they can. I figured Gert's kit was pretty much a bolt on deal for the shop. Perhaps I was incorrect.

The shop has existed since 1985... dealing with rebuilding motors/trannys, Porsche maintenance, and building racing Porsches. The folks are active in the local/state PCA and race a bunch. Seem like good folks. I think they know what they are doing, but .... this is a new "set up" for them. I don't understand why things have not gone down the path I expected, but they are interested in making it work correctly.

One of the reasons I chose Gert's kit was from the emails I received from him. He's a really stand up guy, very responsive and knows his stuff. Also, the kit seemed to be what I wanted..... a street responsive car that will ride no harsher than stock and will not see any track time. Kewl beans, eh? The PSS9s seemed more than I needed. I don't wanna take the car back to have it adjusted several times until I "got it where I wanted it". (Duh, eh?...now where am I?) And the concessus was that the PSS9s were more harsh than the M030s. I got this impression from P-car and Rennlist. Sooo... I chose Gert's stuff. I think it's pretty kewl, too. I like the entire set up and how it's done. Seemed pretty much unbolt and bolt on. Maybe....

I was quoted a bit less than $1800 to put the kit on... I won't bore you with the entire message, but this is how it was quoted...

Step 1. Record before heights on car and alignment settings as simply a reference baseline. Get information from customer as to desired height.
Step 2. Remove all old suspension (4) suspension corners and misc. (estimate 4 hours) $352.00

Step 3. Disassemble old suspension to place parts on new suspension (bench job) (estimate 3 hours) $264.00

Step 4. Install new suspension parts onto vehicle (4) corners, 4 hours $352.00

Step 5. Rough set up ride height, rough set up corner balance, rough set up alignment (estimate 3 hours) $264.00

Step 6. Precision Align, Precision Corner Balance, Road Test (estimate 6 hours) $528.00

Total to do it right $1760

Dr. No

I don't think you're a sucker at all - but I'm sure glad it wasn't $3k for the install alone, and it's got to be aggravating to pay to "do it right" and it's not. Gert's stuff is supposed to be "out with the old, in with the new." Maybe others who have had the same job done can pipe in on the amount of time, which seems a bit high.

jkuniverse

Danny, I'm a little bit confused because I was about to place an order for the suspension package from Gert's with the extra threads... I thought, having the extra threads, meant that you have the flexiblility in achieving the desired height thus eliminating the need for the lowering collars...at least that was my understanding from what Gert explained and also read many times from the forum as so. I just want to do it "properly" and it sounds like getting the lowering collars IS the proper way to do this??? Please advise. Thanks.

Baggerdude

Hey, Dr. NO....

My post said the QUOTE was around $1800. The actual install was NEARLY $3000, m'friend!!

The reason was "because the stuff was not as stated and we had to do it essentially twice".

OUCH...! I wish I could do this in my business. Whatever, eh...?

Dr. No

Man, hate to say it, but that sounds like complete BS. Search the archives and there are many stories of this being a not too difficult DIY for those, unlike me, with opposable thumbs, some skill, and the right tools (I have only the thumbs).

I'd ask them how many 993 suspension installs they have done, and what was so not "as stated" that it took twice as long.

DJF1

What you say does make sense. I'm not the expert on the difference between the european HD's and the US HD's. Reading this good board my understanding is that these collars are the solution, maybe I'm the one who has it wrong and the collars have the same effect as the extra threads, however again my understanding is that the HD's even with the collars in question will not make RS height.
What i do know for a fact are the following:
1. The HD's are longer shocks compared to my HR bilsteins that came with my coilover kit. I compared them side by side.
2. The Euro M030 spring is shorter than the stock US spring.
3. When you install a suspension on the 993, the upper part really never locks to the perch. However on a matched pair ( shock and spring) when you screw in the shock into position, the spring does find and seat on the perch even without been loaded.

Knowing the above you can simply see that the shock length of the HD is the culprit. With the longer M030 US spring or an equivalent length we would not even have this conversation now.
Having said all the above, I will clarify again that this is my opinion of "properly". The HD's paired with the EURO M030 springs have been working on cars for a few years now and I do not know of any report of a failure of a suspension. You want to call it me been uncomfortable knowing that my spring would reseat on the perch every so often? I had the same discussion with my mechanic who did this install and I wintessed it step by step. He felt its not a significant problem, he did not like it himself though. We spend the entire evening literally playing with this because the 'customer' wanted a specific ride height ( RS) which while attainable was creating this spring problem. On the test drive of the car, over some bumps you could hear the spring reseat. I did not like it a bit. I must also say that I was impressed with the ride I was experiencing. For the street for sure it was perfect.

Hope that clarifies your confusion. I'm really sorry if I created more for you!
I did not and do not want to say not to buy the combo or install it. The whole thread started about the noise and I offered my first hand experience with this specific combo which explains the noise...

jkuniverse

Danny, I can see that mismatched shocks and springs can definitely create problems. Thanks for the explanation.

mrsullivan

baggerdude, i am just glad you bought your HDs from gert with the extra threads... the lowering collars will do the trick for the US HDs, but if i could do it over, definitely would have spent a little more $$ to buy with extra threads from Gert...