993 vs. 964 insights?
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From: Oakland CA
993 vs. 964 insights?
All: I'm back to looking for a 911 (was doing so last Fall but other things got in the way). I had been after a 993 but since have thought about the possibility of a 964 instead. Between reading this site, old reviews and magaizines, I think I have a good idea of the changes between the models as well as the key maintenance issues. Certainly the looks and pricing are very different. However, I don't really have an understanding of how different the two actually feel/perform. I've driven quite a few 993s but only one 964.
In your minds, how different are the two on the road due to changes such as the rear suspension, 6 speed, better ventilation/ac, more powerful engine better window sealing, etc? I'm primarily discussing C2s (although I would consider a 993 C4). I realize that this may sound like a simple/stupid question but thanks for any insights - I'm posting this on the 964 board also and did do searches but didn't really find an answer to the real world differences.
In your minds, how different are the two on the road due to changes such as the rear suspension, 6 speed, better ventilation/ac, more powerful engine better window sealing, etc? I'm primarily discussing C2s (although I would consider a 993 C4). I realize that this may sound like a simple/stupid question but thanks for any insights - I'm posting this on the 964 board also and did do searches but didn't really find an answer to the real world differences.
Pro
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From: Tulsa, OK
993 has less road noise, especially on bumps. A/C and ventilation are about the same. The 6 speed is nice, but not a really big deal. I just got back from a road trip with some friends who have a 1992 C4. At 7000 feet, the power difference between my 993 and his 964 was readily apparent. At lower altitudes you would notice less of a difference. When I traded from a 964 to a 993 3 years ago, I was unable to 'feel' a real power difference, but I didn't really do an A/B comparison.
While the 993 headlights aren't great, they are much better than the stock 964 headlights, which are abysmal IMHO.
I do feel the 993 is a much better car than the 964, but the price difference is pretty big now too.
While the 993 headlights aren't great, they are much better than the stock 964 headlights, which are abysmal IMHO.
I do feel the 993 is a much better car than the 964, but the price difference is pretty big now too.
Burning Brakes
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Based on current prices the 964 is a great buy, however if you want a true classic (which some would argue) go with a 993.
Hard for me to compare my 964 to the 993 since my 993 is awd and feels heavier. I will say this, I loved my 964 when I had it, and I love my 993 now.
Hard for me to compare my 964 to the 993 since my 993 is awd and feels heavier. I will say this, I loved my 964 when I had it, and I love my 993 now.
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They are both wonderful cars. Seat of the pants performance between the two is not so big that you would really notice, at least I didn't. I don't think there is a difference in the HVAC.
Both have had a history of problems afflicting a small percentage of each. At this point, you should be able to find either with all problems already attended to.
They are both fairly expensive to fix if something does go wrong but maintenance will be about the same except for the valves which need to be adjusted every 15K (?) miles on the 964.
Good luck with your decision. You can't go wrong either way.
Both have had a history of problems afflicting a small percentage of each. At this point, you should be able to find either with all problems already attended to.
They are both fairly expensive to fix if something does go wrong but maintenance will be about the same except for the valves which need to be adjusted every 15K (?) miles on the 964.
Good luck with your decision. You can't go wrong either way.
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From: London England UK
I owned a 90 C2 964 and it hadn't been very well loooked after and I put an awful lot of money into the car to bring it up to spec. I think the 964 is a great car, my car had a re-built engine and a Lightweight flywheel and RS clutch,cat by-pass by the time I'd finished with it, it was pretty rapid, and very tight for a car of that age.
My 97 varioram 993 is a much more civilised beast but still fearsome, it has been a super car and been 100% reliable, all I've done is service it and put shocks on it. I wish that I had bought a 993 to begin with, no disrespect to 964s (I did have a bad one)I use the car everyday and i needed a little more refinement and maybe reliability than my 964 offered me.
When I asked the same question to a 964/993 owner when I was thinking of getting my 993, he said, "The 993 is a better car than the 964, but the 964 is a better 911 than the 993"
Interesting observation I thought.
From Experience.....................I'd go for 993 varioram
Good luck, and wait for the "Right" car they are around
My 97 varioram 993 is a much more civilised beast but still fearsome, it has been a super car and been 100% reliable, all I've done is service it and put shocks on it. I wish that I had bought a 993 to begin with, no disrespect to 964s (I did have a bad one)I use the car everyday and i needed a little more refinement and maybe reliability than my 964 offered me.
When I asked the same question to a 964/993 owner when I was thinking of getting my 993, he said, "The 993 is a better car than the 964, but the 964 is a better 911 than the 993"
Interesting observation I thought.
From Experience.....................I'd go for 993 varioram
Good luck, and wait for the "Right" car they are around
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As others have said, both are excellent cars. The look, however, is sufficiently different that that, alone, should be enough to sway you one way or another.
Mechanically, there are many similarities, but the LSA rear suspension of the 993, IMO, is worth the price of admission. It is more supple over ripples and irregularities while giving up nothing to grip and agility. It really IS a major developmental step ahead of the old rear suspension, IMO. The 6 speed is nice, but not that big a deal. The 993AWD is likewise a much better-developed system, too. The 993 already comes with meatier rims/tires, which if you were planning an upgrade on a 964, this is money already in the car. The 964's "issues" are well documented, but shouldn't scare you off. If addressed properly, that should leave you with a solid, reliable performer, and at a bargain price at that.
Both have their benefits, and I think it's kind of hard to objectively decide between the two, especially since the prices on 964s (which are maligned by many, and unjustly IMO) reflect a really great bargain. I think you really have to ask yourself which car you can better afford and which car you see yourself really wanting to be in. They're both superb choices so with a good PPI, I don't see an objective reason (given their significant price differences) to side with one over the other.
...I know, not much help, am I
Edward
Mechanically, there are many similarities, but the LSA rear suspension of the 993, IMO, is worth the price of admission. It is more supple over ripples and irregularities while giving up nothing to grip and agility. It really IS a major developmental step ahead of the old rear suspension, IMO. The 6 speed is nice, but not that big a deal. The 993AWD is likewise a much better-developed system, too. The 993 already comes with meatier rims/tires, which if you were planning an upgrade on a 964, this is money already in the car. The 964's "issues" are well documented, but shouldn't scare you off. If addressed properly, that should leave you with a solid, reliable performer, and at a bargain price at that.
Both have their benefits, and I think it's kind of hard to objectively decide between the two, especially since the prices on 964s (which are maligned by many, and unjustly IMO) reflect a really great bargain. I think you really have to ask yourself which car you can better afford and which car you see yourself really wanting to be in. They're both superb choices so with a good PPI, I don't see an objective reason (given their significant price differences) to side with one over the other.
...I know, not much help, am I
Edward
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From: Boston, MA
Originally Posted by Edward
The 993AWD is likewise a much better-developed system, too.
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MonkeyBoy (now how do I say that w/o sounding insulting 
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For your application, you're probably right. The 964's AWD can't vary the torque split as much, and the 993's AWD has a greater rear-torque bias on "default" than the 964, IIRC ...better, unless you want more of that FWD pull as a "default setting" in low-traction situations. Porsche also made the unit lighter and simpler for the 993.
Edward
)For your application, you're probably right. The 964's AWD can't vary the torque split as much, and the 993's AWD has a greater rear-torque bias on "default" than the 964, IIRC ...better, unless you want more of that FWD pull as a "default setting" in low-traction situations. Porsche also made the unit lighter and simpler for the 993.
Edward
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Not sure if I can add anything here, as you really do have a tough choice. They are both great cars.
I had a 964 for a little bit. I loved it. I wish I still had it!
If I had to choose between my 993 and my 964, I would choose the 993, on most days. My 993 seems a bit more civilized for daily driving, although that civility takes a backseat at the track. Best of both worlds for me.
Here's one subtle difference I found in my experience, and hopefully this makes some sense -- the "cruising speed" (ie that speed at which you are casually driving and glance at the speedo to find the car comfortably driving at) was about 90 on the 964, and is about 70 on the 993. I constantly had to check my speedo in the 964. The 993 is much easier to cruise in. Both cars were daily drivers, so that's an important distinction for me. I have found similar cruising speed differences with mid-80s p-cars as well.
I was recently in a friend's 964 and I really missed the feel of that car. I was reminiscing and talked the guy's ear off about my 964. It's a tough choice you have. Not sure if I helped or not. Drive each as much as possible and try to determine which model differences are worth the price.
I had a 964 for a little bit. I loved it. I wish I still had it!
If I had to choose between my 993 and my 964, I would choose the 993, on most days. My 993 seems a bit more civilized for daily driving, although that civility takes a backseat at the track. Best of both worlds for me.
Here's one subtle difference I found in my experience, and hopefully this makes some sense -- the "cruising speed" (ie that speed at which you are casually driving and glance at the speedo to find the car comfortably driving at) was about 90 on the 964, and is about 70 on the 993. I constantly had to check my speedo in the 964. The 993 is much easier to cruise in. Both cars were daily drivers, so that's an important distinction for me. I have found similar cruising speed differences with mid-80s p-cars as well.
I was recently in a friend's 964 and I really missed the feel of that car. I was reminiscing and talked the guy's ear off about my 964. It's a tough choice you have. Not sure if I helped or not. Drive each as much as possible and try to determine which model differences are worth the price.
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From: Rustbelt
I'm one of those who had a bad, really bad 964 C4. Although I loved the way it drove and sounded, it left enough of a bad taste to want never to give that model a second chance. Wish I had gotten the 993, new at that time, instead.
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From: Boston, MA
An important factor in my selling my 964 and purchasing a 993 was the fact that I was only interested in cabriolets, and the 993 had rear shoulder belts while the 964 just has lap belts. If you have toddlers, shoulder belts are necessary when using a booster seat. I've got 2 kids that love riding in the back.
Burning Brakes
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From: Las Vegas, NV.
My last P-car was a 964 prior to my current 993 C2S and although my story is probably not "typical" it is my story. The 90' 964 C4 I had was a POS. It had every problem known along with many others unknown. I dumped a boatload of money into the car to get it right and it never was. It always had weird electrical gremlins, leaking heads, noisy transmission, on and on.
The only saving grace for me was when I finally did sell it (after a year of hell with it) the buyer wanted to completely gut the car and use for a track car only and wasn't concerned about all the problems I described to him.
Having said all that I probably just had a lemon as there are many people enjoying their 964's a bunch. In my very bad experience I'd say stay away from the 90' and 91' model years if you do go that route. To my memory by 92' they had most issues if not all worked out and by the end of the run 94' they are said to be very solid.
The only saving grace for me was when I finally did sell it (after a year of hell with it) the buyer wanted to completely gut the car and use for a track car only and wasn't concerned about all the problems I described to him.
Having said all that I probably just had a lemon as there are many people enjoying their 964's a bunch. In my very bad experience I'd say stay away from the 90' and 91' model years if you do go that route. To my memory by 92' they had most issues if not all worked out and by the end of the run 94' they are said to be very solid.
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From: Dallas TX
I loved my '92 C2 and sold it to my Dad.
It definitely was more like the original 911s in styling. The power was similar to the 993, but the car fell more "raw". That is usually a good thing... unless you are on a bumpy road. The rear suspension is very rough.
I put 17" wheels on the car and couldn't stand the harsh ride. I eventually put the 16"s back on and all was good.
Those cars are a great value, and I would get another one in a heartbeat. My car had no mechanical issues.
You can't go wrong either way.
It definitely was more like the original 911s in styling. The power was similar to the 993, but the car fell more "raw". That is usually a good thing... unless you are on a bumpy road. The rear suspension is very rough.
I put 17" wheels on the car and couldn't stand the harsh ride. I eventually put the 16"s back on and all was good.
Those cars are a great value, and I would get another one in a heartbeat. My car had no mechanical issues.
You can't go wrong either way.
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From: Florida Space Coast
I have owned both. I currently have a 993 C2, but sold a 964 C4 to get it.
The 964 has a few more bugs than the 993 like the flywheel, distributor belt, leaky power steering booster pump, and leaky cylinders in some. However, the 964 is old enough that most of those issues have been corrected by their owners.
If I had a choice of the 964 versus the 993 I would go with a 993. Mostly because it is a newer car and you can expect more usable life from a newer car than an older one, generally. The 993 is a higher evolved car.
If you like/want the classic 911 line, forget the 964, just go with an 87 or 88 Carrera. These cars have a special appeal and driving one is simply different than any later year Porsche. It is more of a dyed-in-the-wool 911. It is true that the newer cars are faster, but that doesn't matter when you are driving a Carrera. You just won't care. If money was the issue and I couldn't reach for a 993 I would go with the 87 or 88 Carrera over a 964 any day.
If you need to be competitive on the track, then a 996 or 997 might be better.
I like the 993 for its modern lines and its drive-ability. It is still a sports car, but civil enough to drive casually. The 996 has too much civility and has lost its soul. The 997 I have not driven yet, so I can't comment.
My C4 had all the usual problems except the cylinder leak. I also wrecked it very badly and spent about $25K to restore it and bring it to RS America specs, just for fun. I liked the car, but the 993 is better for me.
Good luck!
Marv
The 964 has a few more bugs than the 993 like the flywheel, distributor belt, leaky power steering booster pump, and leaky cylinders in some. However, the 964 is old enough that most of those issues have been corrected by their owners.
If I had a choice of the 964 versus the 993 I would go with a 993. Mostly because it is a newer car and you can expect more usable life from a newer car than an older one, generally. The 993 is a higher evolved car.
If you like/want the classic 911 line, forget the 964, just go with an 87 or 88 Carrera. These cars have a special appeal and driving one is simply different than any later year Porsche. It is more of a dyed-in-the-wool 911. It is true that the newer cars are faster, but that doesn't matter when you are driving a Carrera. You just won't care. If money was the issue and I couldn't reach for a 993 I would go with the 87 or 88 Carrera over a 964 any day.
If you need to be competitive on the track, then a 996 or 997 might be better.
I like the 993 for its modern lines and its drive-ability. It is still a sports car, but civil enough to drive casually. The 996 has too much civility and has lost its soul. The 997 I have not driven yet, so I can't comment.
My C4 had all the usual problems except the cylinder leak. I also wrecked it very badly and spent about $25K to restore it and bring it to RS America specs, just for fun. I liked the car, but the 993 is better for me.
Good luck!
Marv
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I have a 98 SY c2s and 93 RSA - can't decide which is better - they're both excellent, but in different ways. The RSA is more 'steely' - I love driving it hard. It's really good, and with the H&R's and Bilstien HD's its the better handling car. But - the C2S is great too - and boy does it look good. Not as edgy, very easy to live with. As satifying.... er.... tough call - but it looks really good.
It comes down to how you'll be using the car. If you're going to be pushing it thro the back roads and back streets - go with the 964 with good suspension. If you're more into "normal" driving get the 993 - and if you want the best of both worlds, get the 993 and modify....
It comes down to how you'll be using the car. If you're going to be pushing it thro the back roads and back streets - go with the 964 with good suspension. If you're more into "normal" driving get the 993 - and if you want the best of both worlds, get the 993 and modify....