Dark Days For Rennlist -- A Turtle Speaks
05-05-2005, 03:53 PM
#1
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Dark Days For Rennlist -- A Turtle Speaks
Been real busy, and was gone yesterday for a track day. Came home to learn of very unfortunate events.
I'm coming out of my shell to speak up because many of the people on the various sides of the various issues of the last few days have four letters and a title in their signature. And some of the people involved are very close friends of mine.
THE LOSS
Through banishment, public disavowal, disillusionment, private frustration or public renndeath at their own hand, a number of listers are gone.
This is a huge loss for this board. In case you missed that, HUGE.
The people who have left, for whatever reason, were incredible resources for all of us. For tech reasons, data reasons, driving skill reasons, and social reasons.
I've been here about five years or so. I've watched a steady erosion in the level of expertise on the 993 board
Yes there are still some very knowledgeable people, and people that are eager to help, but the depth and breadth of knowledge is diminishing. To newer members, you don't, of course, see it, because you have no frame of reference. You're understandably delighted by what you've just discovered and become part of. But trust me on this.
People with Tech Advice you could trust are gone.
People who you could go to with an obscure specs issue and avoid hours of research are gone.
The kind of driving skills and teaching ability that could have helped prevent two incidents that marred an otherwise wonderful weekend are gone.
The voices that weren't afraid to jump on mis-information, and replace it with solid substance, are gone.
I'm fortunate in that I can still go to them, but they are gone from the 993 board, and the performance driving board. And whether you are dismayed or delighted by their departure, it is a Loss.
THE PICTURES
Whether or not this was the real issue at the heart of the last few days' events, this seemed to be the catalyst to the Loss.
There is nothing wrong with sharing event pictures. We all do it, whether publicly or privately, and we all enjoy seeing them if the participant or the event are of interest.
John D said he's fine with photographers protecting their property when displayed on a public site like Rennlist. Makes sense to me.
But Alan, if you were sharing photos or creating artwork for everyone's enjoyment, you didn't need something the size of a .44 Magnum to protect it.
I don't think you should have removed your pictures. I think you should have removed the screaming ID, or at least subdued it.
In my opinion, a series of typical event pictures were not worth The Loss.
THE FREELOADERS
Some new guy just posted on a thread how incensed he was that a member suggested he should join before posting.
As you read Rennlist daily, start paying attention to who is a member and who isn't, and how many posts each has. And while you're at it, note any correlation with their demeanor and quality of what they contribute.
The time and financial committment to bring us all Rennlist is immense.
Why should J&J operate at a loss for our gain?
Regular users of Rennlist should support it. If they don't, maybe Fred can send them some F words
That's the Team Owner's two cents, and you can discount it if you choose.
You can even flame me if you choose. Just remember, at times of Loss, the Turtle turns into a Snapper.
I'm coming out of my shell to speak up because many of the people on the various sides of the various issues of the last few days have four letters and a title in their signature. And some of the people involved are very close friends of mine.
THE LOSS
Through banishment, public disavowal, disillusionment, private frustration or public renndeath at their own hand, a number of listers are gone.
This is a huge loss for this board. In case you missed that, HUGE.
The people who have left, for whatever reason, were incredible resources for all of us. For tech reasons, data reasons, driving skill reasons, and social reasons.
I've been here about five years or so. I've watched a steady erosion in the level of expertise on the 993 board
Yes there are still some very knowledgeable people, and people that are eager to help, but the depth and breadth of knowledge is diminishing. To newer members, you don't, of course, see it, because you have no frame of reference. You're understandably delighted by what you've just discovered and become part of. But trust me on this.
People with Tech Advice you could trust are gone.
People who you could go to with an obscure specs issue and avoid hours of research are gone.
The kind of driving skills and teaching ability that could have helped prevent two incidents that marred an otherwise wonderful weekend are gone.
The voices that weren't afraid to jump on mis-information, and replace it with solid substance, are gone.
I'm fortunate in that I can still go to them, but they are gone from the 993 board, and the performance driving board. And whether you are dismayed or delighted by their departure, it is a Loss.
THE PICTURES
Whether or not this was the real issue at the heart of the last few days' events, this seemed to be the catalyst to the Loss.
There is nothing wrong with sharing event pictures. We all do it, whether publicly or privately, and we all enjoy seeing them if the participant or the event are of interest.
John D said he's fine with photographers protecting their property when displayed on a public site like Rennlist. Makes sense to me.
But Alan, if you were sharing photos or creating artwork for everyone's enjoyment, you didn't need something the size of a .44 Magnum to protect it.
I don't think you should have removed your pictures. I think you should have removed the screaming ID, or at least subdued it.
In my opinion, a series of typical event pictures were not worth The Loss.
THE FREELOADERS
Some new guy just posted on a thread how incensed he was that a member suggested he should join before posting.
As you read Rennlist daily, start paying attention to who is a member and who isn't, and how many posts each has. And while you're at it, note any correlation with their demeanor and quality of what they contribute.
The time and financial committment to bring us all Rennlist is immense.
Why should J&J operate at a loss for our gain?
Regular users of Rennlist should support it. If they don't, maybe Fred can send them some F words
That's the Team Owner's two cents, and you can discount it if you choose.
You can even flame me if you choose. Just remember, at times of Loss, the Turtle turns into a Snapper.
05-05-2005, 04:23 PM
#3
Mike, The sense of entitlement gets old quick. I don't care how much *knowledge* anyone has, if it's delivered in a way that is condescending than imo it's not worth opening the pie hole. And telling everyone to do a search over and over and over and over and over and over again is incredibly monotonous.
There are those out there who feel entitled and many of those are acquainted with you. Perhaps it is time for many of your friends to move on, and they can take their attitude with them. For me to not have to deal with that kind of behavior both directly and as a witness to another is a gift.
This board will be just fine. Actually I think it's going to be better. There are many guys out there who have just as much knowledge and a genuine enthusiasm to help others who need it, and not huddle together in some sort of strange separatist syndicate. Must be a void in one's life to want to participate in something like that.
Good day Mike
There are those out there who feel entitled and many of those are acquainted with you. Perhaps it is time for many of your friends to move on, and they can take their attitude with them. For me to not have to deal with that kind of behavior both directly and as a witness to another is a gift.
This board will be just fine. Actually I think it's going to be better. There are many guys out there who have just as much knowledge and a genuine enthusiasm to help others who need it, and not huddle together in some sort of strange separatist syndicate. Must be a void in one's life to want to participate in something like that.
Good day Mike
05-05-2005, 04:29 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
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Hey Mike! Beautiful day in Chicago, huh? I am sitting in my office in Evanston just staring at downtown...
The knowledge my father passed to me will someday be passed to my son.
Wisdom doesn't go away. It gets passed down. There is a lot of collective wisdom on the board. How many times have you read a reply on a post from someone to whom you told the answerto that exact question years (months, weeks, whatever) ago? Pretty cool watching it get passed around.
Same falls true. I don't think I'll miss wisdom, just the camaraderie.
The knowledge my father passed to me will someday be passed to my son.
Wisdom doesn't go away. It gets passed down. There is a lot of collective wisdom on the board. How many times have you read a reply on a post from someone to whom you told the answerto that exact question years (months, weeks, whatever) ago? Pretty cool watching it get passed around.
Same falls true. I don't think I'll miss wisdom, just the camaraderie.
05-05-2005, 04:42 PM
#5
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Mark, Gorgeous indeed.
Good point that some will be passed on, but the sum total will be lost to a couple boards. I regret that.
Randy
You missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with entitlement, but thanks for sharing your own particular sensitivities. And by the way, a lot of things get old quick.
Good point that some will be passed on, but the sum total will be lost to a couple boards. I regret that.
Randy
You missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with entitlement, but thanks for sharing your own particular sensitivities. And by the way, a lot of things get old quick.
05-05-2005, 04:44 PM
#6
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I agree with Mike,
Maybe some of these old listers who are gone have said something harsly or as I believe in many cases, new member who don't "know" them ("know" just through Rennlist) don't see the humor in their post, may I use Ray Calvo as an example, he has spot on information but his witty humor might seem hars to someone new so he/she thinks it as an insult. But when you get to "know" him better, you get to see the humor in his post better, or if you don't, you still don't get mad about it.
Maybe they "huddled" together and that pisses someone off but I don't think that's any way different from someone else "huddling" together about ride or track day they just had together.
IMO it's a similar thing and if I don't like it, I don't have to read it.
Maybe Rennlist in the end will be better place, maybe not.
That's all maybe, maybe not, but like Mike said, one thing is sure, their knowledge is gone and even though there still are people with lot of knowledge, some of the knowledge is gone and for sure that is not a good thing.
Mike said the depth and breadth of knowledge is diminishing, I sadly have to agree, it is true.
To me the most valauable thing I've gotten from Rennlist is the knowledge, knowledge about these cars.
I've gotten a lot from people here on Rennlist, maybe I know little myself too and I always enjoy sharing information with others.
I enjoy other things too of course but if I had to choose only one single thing that I could get from Rennlist, it would be that, knowledge about these cars.
When the depth and breadth of knowledge is diminishing, I concider it as a loss to everyone here.
Maybe some of these old listers who are gone have said something harsly or as I believe in many cases, new member who don't "know" them ("know" just through Rennlist) don't see the humor in their post, may I use Ray Calvo as an example, he has spot on information but his witty humor might seem hars to someone new so he/she thinks it as an insult. But when you get to "know" him better, you get to see the humor in his post better, or if you don't, you still don't get mad about it.
Maybe they "huddled" together and that pisses someone off but I don't think that's any way different from someone else "huddling" together about ride or track day they just had together.
IMO it's a similar thing and if I don't like it, I don't have to read it.
Maybe Rennlist in the end will be better place, maybe not.
That's all maybe, maybe not, but like Mike said, one thing is sure, their knowledge is gone and even though there still are people with lot of knowledge, some of the knowledge is gone and for sure that is not a good thing.
Mike said the depth and breadth of knowledge is diminishing, I sadly have to agree, it is true.
To me the most valauable thing I've gotten from Rennlist is the knowledge, knowledge about these cars.
I've gotten a lot from people here on Rennlist, maybe I know little myself too and I always enjoy sharing information with others.
I enjoy other things too of course but if I had to choose only one single thing that I could get from Rennlist, it would be that, knowledge about these cars.
When the depth and breadth of knowledge is diminishing, I concider it as a loss to everyone here.
05-05-2005, 04:48 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by Mike in Chi
...Regular users of Rennlist should support it. If they don't, maybe Fred can send them some F words...
I still don't understand the decision to leave the Board. Few of us are celebrating the loss. That's not what anyone wanted. What was wanted was for those members who crashed the party to take there concerns elsewhere. Express them in an appropriate manner, in the appropriate forum, with the appropriate audiance. That's all any of us wanted and they just wouldn't do it. They seemed more interested in fanning the flames with so-called facts, and disrespecting the content and purpose of "THE" thread. Remember, this was one thread of thousands.
Their actions were disrespectful to the members, the participants and the sense of community that everyone seems to value. Somehow, in the wake of the departure of some valued members, this concept has been lost.
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05-05-2005, 05:09 PM
#8
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Mike - well said and accurate too. I am saddened.
Randy-M I'm puzzled. Is there a question I could ask you about any subject where you are an expert? I'm sure there is. How about I ask you. Then how about I ask you the same question every week for two or three years in the same forum. When would *you* get tired of typing the same answer over and over? When would *you* simply respond "use search"?
You joined in 2002. Some of the guys who replied "use search" have been answering the same questions here and on the email list for TEN years! "What's the largest wheel/tire I can fit on my 993?" for example. The everpopular "will I get 15 HP from a K and N filter?". There are hundreds if not thousands of these which have been answered hundreds if not thousands of times by the same people. I can assure you that ten years ago, 993 questions got answered. Now, they are all in the archives and Search finds them in split seconds.
I don't want to come off sounding arrogant or even defending some curt replies (some of which WERE out of line) but, give these guys a break too. There are people who type questions which are answered in their owner's manuals. Why? We don't know, but it happens, that's why the RTFM icon exists.
I hope this makes you see the other side because, as always. there are two sides.
Regards,
Randy-M I'm puzzled. Is there a question I could ask you about any subject where you are an expert? I'm sure there is. How about I ask you. Then how about I ask you the same question every week for two or three years in the same forum. When would *you* get tired of typing the same answer over and over? When would *you* simply respond "use search"?
You joined in 2002. Some of the guys who replied "use search" have been answering the same questions here and on the email list for TEN years! "What's the largest wheel/tire I can fit on my 993?" for example. The everpopular "will I get 15 HP from a K and N filter?". There are hundreds if not thousands of these which have been answered hundreds if not thousands of times by the same people. I can assure you that ten years ago, 993 questions got answered. Now, they are all in the archives and Search finds them in split seconds.
I don't want to come off sounding arrogant or even defending some curt replies (some of which WERE out of line) but, give these guys a break too. There are people who type questions which are answered in their owner's manuals. Why? We don't know, but it happens, that's why the RTFM icon exists.
I hope this makes you see the other side because, as always. there are two sides.
Regards,
05-05-2005, 05:21 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by Randy M
telling everyone to do a search over and over and over and over and over and over again is incredibly monotonous.
The problem with not searching before posting is that the experts tire of answering the same questions again, and again, and again, ad nauseum. As a result, the value put into the threads diminishes. This is a poor reflection on Rennlist to anyone who doesn't know better, particularly visitors who are the future of Rennlist. (And it's boring for the current members that see the same questions recycled . . . of course, they can just move on.) These less valuable threads then work their way into the archives and further dilute the archive resources. Without the checks-and-balances of being chided for not searching is only going to lead to more people posting the same questions and increase the dilution of value.
Further, the "do a search" is a nice marker in the thread for anyone who is searching the archives to keep going into other threads to get the answer they're looking for.
And I just don't understand why not search? The posters time is more valuable than the experts? No way. How many times are the experts supposed to take their time to explain the same question? 10, 20, 30 . . . how many times is enough?
Anyway, those are my thoughts on "do a search".
Regards,
05-05-2005, 05:27 PM
#11
Mike, My response to your post is the point and is the crux of the issue. If Alan was in the clique it wouldn't have been an issue at all. Many of your friends don't value him as a member and wanted to publicly flog him. It really does not have alot to do w/ him advertising. That was just an excuse.
Bob and Cy, I totally agree with your points. But when all you see from a member is 'do a search' and nothing else, then what's the point of being a member. We all know it's in the delivery...
Bob and Cy, I totally agree with your points. But when all you see from a member is 'do a search' and nothing else, then what's the point of being a member. We all know it's in the delivery...
05-05-2005, 05:43 PM
#12
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Randy M
Mike, My response to your post is the point and is the crux of the issue. If Alan was in the clique it wouldn't have been an issue at all.
Randy,
Wrong.
You missed it, though others seemed to have grasped it entirely.
Let me say it another way. Though this wasn't my original point, but it might help you undestand.
If I had a technical question on improving the performance of my cars, would I rely on you or Sunday Driver?
If I wanted to learn how to better handle the performance of my cars, in order to say, keep it out of the ditch on a run with friends, would I rely on you or DJ?
If I needed help taking on a major corporation to compensate for a design flaw in my cars, would I rely on you or EJ?
If I needed important, but obscure spec info, would I rely on you or Viken?
Now you no doubt will view this as arrogance, but I view it as a fair evaluation of available resources. And I regret losing those resources that have been lost.
Also, you might note, Alan and I are teammates.
Finally, like you admited in the other thread, there's been venom here ever since you've been a member.
05-05-2005, 05:44 PM
#13
Drifting
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I guess I will chime in.
I don't know whats going on either nor the issues at hand. I tend to look for information of interest and do as much research as I can before I ask a question. Mistakes have been made and I'm sure I haven't always entered the correct word but I have never had anyone respond by only saying "do a search". I can only recall getting snappy one time via the keyboard at another member and I don't remember whom it was. Some have PM'd me with info and help and I'm greatful. It reflects what people have in there heat and even though I don't know them as individuals....efforts command respect when help of suggestions are offered.
Whatever happened, happened and thats it. Alot of us are not going anywhere and some will fill the void by those that packed up. Maybe we won't know as much but over time that space will be filled up.
I don't know whats going on either nor the issues at hand. I tend to look for information of interest and do as much research as I can before I ask a question. Mistakes have been made and I'm sure I haven't always entered the correct word but I have never had anyone respond by only saying "do a search". I can only recall getting snappy one time via the keyboard at another member and I don't remember whom it was. Some have PM'd me with info and help and I'm greatful. It reflects what people have in there heat and even though I don't know them as individuals....efforts command respect when help of suggestions are offered.
Whatever happened, happened and thats it. Alot of us are not going anywhere and some will fill the void by those that packed up. Maybe we won't know as much but over time that space will be filled up.
05-05-2005, 06:07 PM
#14
Originally Posted by Mike in Chi
Randy,
Wrong.
You missed it, though others seemed to have grasped it entirely.
Let me say it another way. Though this wasn't my original point, but it might help you undestand.
If I had a technical question on improving the performance of my cars, would I rely on you or Sunday Driver?
If I wanted to learn how to better handle the performance of my cars, in order to say, keep it out of the ditch on a run with friends, would I rely on you or DJ?
If I needed help taking on a major corporation to compensate for a design flaw in my cars, would I rely on you or EJ?
If I needed important, but obscure spec info, would I rely on you or Viken?
Now you no doubt will view this as arrogance, but I view it as a fair evaluation of available resources. And I regret losing those resources that have been lost.
Also, you might note, Alan and I are teammates.
Finally, like you admited in the other thread, there's been venom here ever since you've been a member.
Wrong.
You missed it, though others seemed to have grasped it entirely.
Let me say it another way. Though this wasn't my original point, but it might help you undestand.
If I had a technical question on improving the performance of my cars, would I rely on you or Sunday Driver?
If I wanted to learn how to better handle the performance of my cars, in order to say, keep it out of the ditch on a run with friends, would I rely on you or DJ?
If I needed help taking on a major corporation to compensate for a design flaw in my cars, would I rely on you or EJ?
If I needed important, but obscure spec info, would I rely on you or Viken?
Now you no doubt will view this as arrogance, but I view it as a fair evaluation of available resources. And I regret losing those resources that have been lost.
Also, you might note, Alan and I are teammates.
Finally, like you admited in the other thread, there's been venom here ever since you've been a member.
Now, would I refer to you or any of your extra special friends if I had any problem or question with my car whatsoever? No I would not. Have I ever directly? No I have not except for Viken but he's not the problem. Have they ever responded to a question I've posted? Not that I can recall, I could be wrong I don't know. I would and have asked Steve W. because I know that he's genuine and I don't need to deal with a crass, arrogant attitude like your post. Like I said it's all in the delivery and your response to my honest opinion furthers the division of this board and is apparently what you guys want.
Your friends got their panties in a bunch because they're not getting the respect that they *demand* when they speak up about something they don't like. You've got to earn it and not demand it....and I think you know that too.
Last edited by Randy M; 05-05-2005 at 06:24 PM.
05-05-2005, 06:10 PM
#15
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Can someone explain to me, like I was a child, exactly why it is people are leaving and how it is related to the Rumble, pictures and searching. Yes, I have read almost every post on this subject and the reason for leaving seems to be a moving target.
I will say that as far as the pictures and the watermark - John D. himself said it was ok, so that should be the end of that discussion.
Greg H.
I will say that as far as the pictures and the watermark - John D. himself said it was ok, so that should be the end of that discussion.
Greg H.