OT why did Porsche abandon racing??
12-29-2004, 09:30 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by DamonsCarrera
Ferrari made something north of $1B in profits last year.
last year they only had 1.7million EURO profit and this year, the losses undergone over nine months come from costs of the Formula One " too high compared to the number of sold cars", explains Mr. Todt
12-29-2004, 09:43 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by Rick Lee
I thought the whole reason Porsche even started racing was to promote their production cars.
12-29-2004, 09:54 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
Sorry, I should have said, "this year", last year they only had 1.7million EURO profit and this year, the losses undergone over nine months come from costs of the Formula One " too high compared to the number of sold cars", explains Mr. Todt
last year they only had 1.7million EURO profit and this year, the losses undergone over nine months come from costs of the Formula One " too high compared to the number of sold cars", explains Mr. Todt
-Damon
'94 325i
'95 993
12-29-2004, 09:56 PM
#34
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From Bloomberg.com:
"Porsche, the maker of the 911 Carrera and Boxster sports cars, trades at an estimated 2003 price-earnings ratio of 9.73. Porsche had an operating profit margin of about 18 percent in 2002 compared with 6 percent for Ferrari"
-Damon
'94 325i
'95 993
"Porsche, the maker of the 911 Carrera and Boxster sports cars, trades at an estimated 2003 price-earnings ratio of 9.73. Porsche had an operating profit margin of about 18 percent in 2002 compared with 6 percent for Ferrari"
-Damon
'94 325i
'95 993
12-29-2004, 10:54 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by Revvin_911S
The comment about the younger generation being less impressed with Porsche is quite accurate. I’m 21, and very few people that I know in my age range are at all impressed with the Porsche name. My 27-year-old car is a joke to them, aided, I’m sure, due to the lack of stickers and a coffee can on the exhaust, and even the brand new models don’t do anything to excite them. This spells trouble for Porsche of the future. These people who couldn’t care less about a Porsche are the people in a few years who will be able to buy one, but wont because they have grown up not being impressed by the company. It was stated that in the '70s and '80s kids looked up to Porsche and dreamed of owning one day. Well, that was also a time when Porsche was involved at the top levels of racing. Its a fair enough statement that in general young people cant afford to buy new Porsches, but it is still important to impress them with the quality and heritage of the name so that when they grow up and have the means, they can by that new 911 they have been dreaming about for years. Racing is the way to do this. Many people that are able to buy a new Porsche are of an age that they grew up when Porsche was THE car to beat, and because of that legacy are buying new Porsches today. If Porsche doesn’t get back into racing, or find some other way to dramatically improve their standing with a younger generation, then in a few years nobody will be buying Porsche because they name will simply fail to impress. Just a kid’s opinion.
Blake,
Very, very well said. Not bad for a "kid".
I am convinced that an exceedingly large percentage of corporations and businesses today focus too much on short-term gain at the expense of long-range business planning. Even in my field of dermatology, you see all these "docs" hawking the latest snake-oil rejuvenation product or procedure of the moment - until the patients figure out that it doesn't work. Does it make you a little money for a few months? Sure. Does it build your reputation as an honest and competent physician, to whom patients will return and send their kids and grandkids? Doubt it.
With respect to Porsche, I honestly don't expect them to field a F1 effort because it's insanely expensive. But, I can't figure why they don't at least compete a CGT derivative at Le Mans. Honestly, though, I'm not sure Audi's racing success has translated into significantly more sales in the U.S., but it has ignited a spark of interest in an Audi as a daily driver in me.
It's not just about the glamour of racing, but about the improvement in engineering knowledge that hopefully trickles down to the road cars. The race track is a hell of a proving ground.
12-30-2004, 01:49 AM
#36
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Blake,
Very well said.
Porsche shouldn't race again because it needs to make more money. Porsche should race again because the phenomenal brand name they HAD is suffering, both from the absence from top-level endurance racing (where they belong, IMO) and, again IMO, because of the Cayenne. Porsche already doesn't mean what it used to. It appears that the people who are too young to have learned about Porsche when they raced and built cars to an engineering and quality standard, rather than a price/profit point as they do today, see the company and the brand for what it is now -- a mere shadow of what Porsche was when it built truly iconic cars and a truly iconic brand.
Very well said.
Porsche shouldn't race again because it needs to make more money. Porsche should race again because the phenomenal brand name they HAD is suffering, both from the absence from top-level endurance racing (where they belong, IMO) and, again IMO, because of the Cayenne. Porsche already doesn't mean what it used to. It appears that the people who are too young to have learned about Porsche when they raced and built cars to an engineering and quality standard, rather than a price/profit point as they do today, see the company and the brand for what it is now -- a mere shadow of what Porsche was when it built truly iconic cars and a truly iconic brand.
12-30-2004, 02:04 AM
#37
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One of the things that Porsche has had going for it, is the large market of people that are willing to spend a substantial amount for a used Porsche. You won't see many people in line to buy a 15 year old pepper if the Porsche is no different than a VW. How many of their typical customers will spend $90k for a new 911 when the used car market falls out due to a dillution of the Porsche "mystique". For the price of a used C2, you could get a new EVO or Subaru box that is quickr, handle quite well, and oh yeah, Subaru sponsors racing of some sort..... I've seen it on the speed channel......
Porsches have never been cheap, but they were "bred from racing"........ Going down market doesn't make sense to me, but I grew up watching 962's on TV..... and in posters....... not too many kids with pepper posters......
-Eric
NER/PCA
90 C2 (eventually a 993........)
Porsches have never been cheap, but they were "bred from racing"........ Going down market doesn't make sense to me, but I grew up watching 962's on TV..... and in posters....... not too many kids with pepper posters......
-Eric
NER/PCA
90 C2 (eventually a 993........)
12-30-2004, 05:15 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
Porsche has single-handedly kept road-racing alive in the USA and most of the rest of the world with the Cup and RSR. Every race that involves sportscars has huge numbers of Porsches making up the field and not much else. Without the continuous R&D by Porsche, road racing would suck even more than it already does. Ferrari lost a good chunk of money last year because of F1, so what if Porsche doesn't run an official factory team in the top tier of motorsports. Porsche has never stopped building racecars they've just stopped fielding an official factory team.
Porsche sell these race cars to customers so I give the credit to the racing teams not Porsche.
Sometimes I wonder why they stick with Porsche because the costs are enormous and it is such a lowly class NGT.
In Europe and in many other nations road racing competitions, the "Tin Tops" have a huge following and many manufacturers take part.
Mercedes, Audi/Bentley, Lister, Opel, Holden, Ford, BMW. Alfa, SEAT, Renault, Ferrari, Maserati, Saleen. These are all factory teams.
In the rally world which is huge the WRC has factory teams from Subaru, Ford, Citroen, Peugeot, SEAT, Hyundai, Mitsibushi.
Paris-Dakar and the other desert endurance racing has factory teams from VW, Nissan as well as from the lists above.
In 2005 Maserati and Aston martin return to full time endurance racing.
GM and a couple of others are coming to Europe for the touring cars.
The Porsche Super Cup series is just a F1 support race.
Porsche is charged 1 million per race and this cost is carried by the racing teams.
There are multiple "series" races involving many other manufacturers.
The only thing keeping Porsche in the racing field is the customer loyalty of the purchasing racing teams. This loyalty is beginning to falter. TRG are a good example. To move up and to become more competitive they have gone to GM and Crawford products. They still have their GT-3s but in a support role in the lesser classes.
On the R&D side. Again I cannot see this nor agree with it. Every change they make to the GT-3 for the race track costs the team.
No pay, no get the change.
If you see the Porsche customer racing team in action on a real race day (say Le mans) there is a definitive pecking order of who gets what, before and during the race. Porsche only associate themselves with the winners the losers can please themselves.
The road version of the GT-3 is a homologation model. Outside of the GT-3 almost nothing is being transferred to other models.
Not even the PCCBs have been race proven. They are due to be raced in the coming season.
The GT-2 was never developed into a higher class race car. It could have gone up against the Corvettes, Vipers, Saleens, Ferraris but never did.
I am like many others (maybe a little older than many here) who grew up cheering on the Porsche works racing team in their 908s, 911s, 917s, 934, 935s, 936s etc etc. These cars can now be found in museums along with the real Porsche racing history.
I simply cannot agree that you say Porsche has saved anything except money from abandoning factory racing. One cannot say that the Cayenne or 997 were born and bred from racing. The new 4-door sedan has no racing heritage.
In fact the last 911 series which can be truly associated with the big time racing is the 993.
The 993 GT-2 Evo stayed competitive for many years after the 996 came on the market. It was never replaced with a 996 GT-2.
I understand why PAG have done what they have.
I just happen not to agree with it and long term there is a price to pay.
Ciao,
Adrian.
12-30-2004, 01:49 PM
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Playing devil's advocate for a moment, because I would personally like to see Porsche return to the sport as a factory...
What kind of racing should Porsche do? F1 is quite expensive and I do not think Porsche could equal Ferrari under any circumstances. Frank Williams recently said something to the effect of, "Our budget relates to Ferrari's as Jordan's does to ours", which I take to mean $350M+ per year - too much for Porsche.
There is already a DP effort although Lexus and Pontiac - Lexus and Pontiac! have made it look pretty second-rate. A Le Mans/ALMS effort with a CGT lookalike? The CGT will sell out without one, and - and here's the crux of the problem - modern racing series like parity. If the equivalent of the 917 appeared today, it would be gelded the same way the Audi R8 has been.
No, I think what would really excite people would be to see the same cars they can buy - or facsimiles of same - winning races. Except we already have that. The much-maligned 996 has been winning those kinds of races for years, and other people have been happy to pay for putting them in the winner's circles.
What's left? Only fanciful stuff, really:
* Creating a 2.0L AWD Boxster and running it in WRC?
* Or a Cayenne pickup in America's NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series?
* A Porsche-powered World of Outlaws car?
* Some open-wheel participation below the summit, like GP2, CART, or IRL?
Once Porsche has a sedan - if it is really going to have one - it could do DTM and the Speed World Challenge. Those are two series which have captured the attention, and the imagination, of the fans . But in the short term I think the 911 is adequately represented in sports/GT racing.
The problem Porsche faces in the marketplace is somewhat more significant. The Japanese rallyboxes, although I personally believe them to be soulless pieces of plastic crap, have stolen the hearts and minds of young enthusiasts. Here in the US, we have a $43,000 Corvette which can outrun a 997 on the track and an upcoming 500hp Z06 which will likely outsprint the GT2, and come close to the CGT, for $65,000. No, they aren't "built like a Porsche", but isn't that what people say about the 996?
What kind of racing should Porsche do? F1 is quite expensive and I do not think Porsche could equal Ferrari under any circumstances. Frank Williams recently said something to the effect of, "Our budget relates to Ferrari's as Jordan's does to ours", which I take to mean $350M+ per year - too much for Porsche.
There is already a DP effort although Lexus and Pontiac - Lexus and Pontiac! have made it look pretty second-rate. A Le Mans/ALMS effort with a CGT lookalike? The CGT will sell out without one, and - and here's the crux of the problem - modern racing series like parity. If the equivalent of the 917 appeared today, it would be gelded the same way the Audi R8 has been.
No, I think what would really excite people would be to see the same cars they can buy - or facsimiles of same - winning races. Except we already have that. The much-maligned 996 has been winning those kinds of races for years, and other people have been happy to pay for putting them in the winner's circles.
What's left? Only fanciful stuff, really:
* Creating a 2.0L AWD Boxster and running it in WRC?
* Or a Cayenne pickup in America's NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series?
* A Porsche-powered World of Outlaws car?
* Some open-wheel participation below the summit, like GP2, CART, or IRL?
Once Porsche has a sedan - if it is really going to have one - it could do DTM and the Speed World Challenge. Those are two series which have captured the attention, and the imagination, of the fans . But in the short term I think the 911 is adequately represented in sports/GT racing.
The problem Porsche faces in the marketplace is somewhat more significant. The Japanese rallyboxes, although I personally believe them to be soulless pieces of plastic crap, have stolen the hearts and minds of young enthusiasts. Here in the US, we have a $43,000 Corvette which can outrun a 997 on the track and an upcoming 500hp Z06 which will likely outsprint the GT2, and come close to the CGT, for $65,000. No, they aren't "built like a Porsche", but isn't that what people say about the 996?
12-30-2004, 02:23 PM
#41
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The Japanese rallyboxes, although I personally believe them to be soulless pieces of plastic crap, have stolen the hearts and minds of young enthusiasts.
There is already a DP effort although Lexus and Pontiac - Lexus and Pontiac! have made it look pretty second-rate.
Once Porsche has a sedan - if it is really going to have one - it could do DTM and the Speed World Challenge.
-Damon
'94 325i
'95 993
Last edited by DamonsCarrera; 12-30-2004 at 05:12 PM.
12-30-2004, 02:38 PM
#42
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I understand why PAG have done what they have. I just happen not to agree with it and long term there is a price to pay.
-Damon
'94 325i
'95 993
12-30-2004, 05:50 PM
#43
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Actually Daimler Chyrsler did try and get WW. Porsche countered and offered him a better deal and he stayed. The rumour in 2001 was that he was going to Daimler and then he signed a new contract for PAG until 2007 I believe.
I am sure if the 4-door goes ahead he may stay even longer. He is the head of the most profitable car company (not all through car sales either) in the world. He can only go down from here so do not expect him to move soon.
We have saying back home which I am sure WW has heard of.
At Porsche WW is King of the ****s if he moves he might become **** of the Kings.
Ciao,
Adrian.
I am sure if the 4-door goes ahead he may stay even longer. He is the head of the most profitable car company (not all through car sales either) in the world. He can only go down from here so do not expect him to move soon.
We have saying back home which I am sure WW has heard of.
At Porsche WW is King of the ****s if he moves he might become **** of the Kings.
Ciao,
Adrian.
