Eli K

Marvin, from everything you listed so far it sounds like a great deal at 28-29K. As stated above, there are cars priced lower, but you'll generally get what you pay for. Make sure you DO get a PPI, as it will hopefully reveal any body/paint issues you might not have cought.

seege

If you dont like those wheels and tires you could probably get enough for them to replace with something you do like.The mileage is not high nor is 2 owners. I would be surprised to hear a dealer let one go with under 100K miles for under 30K $. Especially here in California where prices are relatively high.
Now if it were needing a clutch or other major then that would be another thing. I say if you love the car it is probably worth a little more than 30K.How much more is up to you of course.

umfan866

BTW dealer called yesterday to tell me the car was going on sale for $29,800. That is before
I did any bargaining/bit on it. He will call again tommorow... I did a lookup on Autotrader and
found that it is not that hard to find 993's from 1995 with low optioned under 30k...or there
is a 95 Cab in Florida that is 30k (but needs new roof). Man now that is 2005 I realize this
is a 10 year old car!! The real problem at this point actually is that I have 2 year old and one
on the way and we need a main family car (not another German money sink) and I am having
a hard time convincing the wife that this would be a good vehicle. She is more likely to go for
the Cayenne (but we can't really pay for even a base Cayenne at $42k either). I may be buying
a used '99 528i or 540i wagon at some point in the next 6 months instead.

Pzkw993

See previous post on this topic. I'm not sure you would want to own any of those cars, or pay what it would cost to set them right.

Not to state the obvious, but that is not likely to be cheap, you know.

Yes, and a 2.7 Carrera RS is a thirty-two-year-old car. If you are looking for a car where resale prices fall off the shelf every time the new one comes out, or a psychologically important barrier like 10 years is hit, may I suggest a Corvette?

A six-year-old E39 wagon will roll your eyeballs back in your skull with repair costs, particularly the V8. Chances are it's going to need a new transmission during your ownership period, as the auto trannies in those cars have a definite and limited lifetime.

If your budget is genuinely limited, and you want a quick family car, may I suggest a Subaru Forester XT? It's quicker than a NA 993, has interior room similar to that of the E39 wagon, and comes with a full warranty, for $24,570.

umfan866

Pzkw993,

Hey thanks for your post. Yep, I guess are a lot of non-well maintained 993s out there. The
one that I started the thread about looks pretty clean but the lack of complete history
and the lack of a complete service record makes it a little suspect too. I actually was reading
in a Porsche buyer's guide in Barnes and Noble how when you sell the car people will want those
same service records so it's a big negative not to have them. I am not so worried about the 10
year old aspect as I initially thought--my own daily driver is 19 years old ('86 BMW 325).

In terms of getting a Porsche I think I will have to hold off a few years and get a family hauler first. Thanks for the heads up about the E39 transmissions. Someone else had mentioned that, and/or that the V8's tend to break in expensive ways around 80k. Do you know of the manual transmission wagons (only came to US in the 528i and are rare) have the same problem, or are they oK?

I have a lot of friends who swear by their Subaru Wagon --they mostly have Outbacks. Subaru has come a long, long way from when they first came out. It's hard for me to open my mind to non-German cars (e.g. Subaru, Honda, Lexus) but I know in my gut that these things are a lot cheaper and a lot more sensible for someone on a budget, and getting a lot sportier too (e.g. new Mazda3 and Mazda6 wagons look cool). Marv.

Fred, Long Island

Just acquired a one owner,50k miles, spotless 993 (including the engine seals), literally showroom condition paint....for $29.9 from a Porsche dealer. It was taken in on trade for a new one.

delanobe

In my opinion those prices are really to low for a good NB?
Prices for a good 993 are actually going up here in Europe. I've checked some dealers here in Belgium and if you want a good 95" 96" prices are +/- 36.000€ ( 42.500$ )
You can find 993's for 28.000€ but those are abused, and not maintained as they should.

Regards

Speedraser

Fred,

If your car is really that good and you paid that price, you are VERY lucky, IMO.

umfan866

BTW talked to the dealer today about the 993that started this thread and they
weren't able to sell it over the weekend even at an advertised price of $29,800.
Lots of calls/ interest but nobody serious. I told the sales person that the lack
of service history is a big issue. Tried to get him to see what his lowest possible
price would be but apparently he doesn't even know what the dealership paid
for the tradein and/or how low management would go. In any case good to know
that a one-owner mint 95 993 is worth about 29-30k and this one somewhere
south of that.

umfan866

Fred--what color was yours? And what options did it have?

Fred, Long Island

Umfan....
Red, black interior. Options are limited. 17 inch wheels, basket handle, power seats. It was a custom order by the buyer according to the codes. I've just mailed him a letter of inquiry as to history.

smshirk

Black book Cars of Particular interest is the correct source for retail/private party pricing info for a 95 993 in good to very good shape with less than 10k miles per year. The Black book official old car (90-97) market guide is the source the dealer likely used in trading for the vehicle... The regular market guide only covers 98 and up vehicles. Black book is the source that dealers or lenders don't usually let you see. They put NADA, Edmunds, or KBB out for the public. The prices in the consumer available publications are what the dealer associations want you to see.

black book Old car guide:

Wholesale fair 18200
wholesale avg 22300
wholesale clean 26000

CPI

Retail fair 21425
retail good 29000
retail exc 37675

Retail good means the car needs nothing, most non professionals or non collectors would consider it excellent

Retail excellent means concourse condition as a restoration or as new with very little mileage

The dealer has this car priced in the range you should pay for a well sorted/with records car. he likely has no more than 22k in it, depending on what kind of week/month he's having will determine just how low he will go.

Having said all that, 993 and 928 GTS models are the most unpredictable pricing in the used car arena right now. Black book calculates the values based on a host of inputs. They use auction prices, retail sales, private party sales, tax records, and independent research. Really nice examples of 993s that should sell in the good range are being priced in the excellent range on both sides of the country right now. A very low percentage of sellers are getting any where near their asking price, but if they are willing to hold the car long enough, someone will buy at most any price. Dealers are then, logically, the best source, for the least up front cost. The problem with that, as many on this thread have indicated, there are rarely any records available from a non-Porsche dealer...there is a reason for that....almost always!

Pzkw993

Regarding "Black Book" valuations... I am a former dealership, Ford Credit, and BMW Credit employee and I wanted to stick my nose in on this.

Most "black books" are simply auction records, nothing more, nothing less, and they are usually taken from the mainline auctions held in that area. They are great guides for, say, a two-year-old Camry.

But.

There are two problems with using "Black Books" to price semi-exotic cars. The first problem is that most highline dealers cherrypick trades and only put the question-mark cars into an auction. Everybody knows this and it depresses values. The only people who buy highline cars at auctions are "Toy Store" - style places who expect to buy the cars cheap and make a killing on them. They know they are getting grade-B cars (regardless of exterior condition) and they expect to pay grade-B prices. So a 911 takes a much harder "hit" at an auction than a Taurus/Camry/Explorer/whatever. Anybody who lets a 911 go at auction deserves what they get, which is utter misery.

Second problem is related to the first. Car dealers don't like "pointy-nose-cars" (yes, I know these aren't strictly pointy-nosed, but that's the term). They have a six-month sales year in most parts of the United States, they are harder to finance and insure, and they are more subject to fashion.

Here's what happens when you bring a 911/Maserati/whatever into a Chevy dealership to trade for a Suburban LT:

1) The new car manager calls the used manager to get a number.
2) The used car manager calls his "pointy-nose guy" - usually the local Porsche/Ferrari/highline dealer, who will put a number on it over the phone. That's right, most used cars are bought and sold between dealers over the phone!
3) If the pointy-nose guy doesn't want it, the used-car guy will put black-book money on it less a modest deduction.
4) Then the new car department makes the deal.

My guess is that if this had happened properly the car in question would already be crossing a block somewhere. So what went wrong? Well, some times the new car guy really wants to make a particular deal. It could be the deal which helps them meet allocation, or a "problem car" (bad color, damaged in transit, other problems), or a sale to a sorority sister of the owner's daughter. Whatever the reason it, a new car side can "overload" a trade. Once that happens, it's their responsibility to get it sold right there at the dealership, because they'd lose money at an auction.

No "regular" dealership willingly sells a Porsche. For one thing, they can't prep or fix them right. They tend to attract lot vandals, unserious customers, and other undesirables, and they can lose value in a hurry. So why is that car there? It's there because they have too much money in it, the auction can't dig them out of the whole, their local pointy-nose guy won't take the car, so they have to hold their nose and hope for the best.

What does this mean? Well, it means they have more than $22k in the car. If they didn't, it would have crossed the block immediately. Hell, if they had $25K in the car they'd probably put it across the block and take the loss. Somebody got a hard-on for this car, or the deal it was attached to, and put too much money in it. Happens all the time.

Speaking personally, I'd avoid the car. There's a reason the previous owner didn't sell it on Rennlist, Pano, or somewhere else. He took it to a dealer because people take their garbage to a dealer to drop it off with a clean conscience.

mborkow

Pzkw993, very interesting observations...next time i buy a car at a dealership will you come with me to make the deal!?

ventoGT

Very interesting take on the Situation PKzW--I have only worked on the service end of a dealership so it's always informative to learn how dealers buy cars back, etc.