Mike in Chi

Schumacher and Ferrari clinched the title today. One more victory and Schumacher is the winningest of all time

So who do all of you think is the best driver of all time?

I know it's off-topic, but I've come to respect a lot of the opinions on this board.

OK, to keep it on topic, also who's the best driver associated with Porsche? Bell, Ickx, Elford, Wolleck?

Mike

Michael Elmore

Mike

I would have to place Schumacher and Senna in a tie as the all-time best. And if forced to choose between the two, I would give Michael the nod. The guy is FEARLESS.

Ray Calvo

All time best? Hard to say, crossing several different eras. But my votes are for Stirling Moss and Ayrton Senna, with Schumacher in the running as well.

Best in a Porsche? Once again, hard to pick due to dufferent eras. However, I might pick Rosemeyer and Nuvolari for how they "tamed" the pre-WWII Auto Union beasts.

(if you ever get the change, watch the program "Silver Arrows from Zwickau" on Speedvision. Great show on these Auto Unions.)

Paul M

I think technology plays a huge part, and so in the context of time, and also bearing in mind there was always somebody to beat:

50's Stirling Moss and Juan Fangio
60's Clark and Hill
(All before my time)
70's Lauda & Hunt
80's Prost & Prost
Late 80's, early 90's Senna (Mansell?)
90's Schumacher

--Paul--

pikey7

Woahhhh......

Isn't the point here, we're tring to judge te 'Best driver of all time'????? What an impossible call....... For all we know, it was some one drive wonder, who ended up in a Minardi at the end of the '90s, who never got to show his talent to the world because of his machinery.
When you look at Schumacher, he basically aced it straight into a good team (Jordan, then Benneton, then Ferrari). Whereas Senna even had to start from the back (March), and then had to be recognised as a talent to even get a shot at his titles.

It could be argued that the great drivers have always moulded their teams into the way that they want them, so that they could win, but can you imagine the state of Grand prix racing today if Bernie was still running March as a top flite team?


Enough rambling, my top 5 of Talent is:
1. Senna
2. Fangio
3. Clark
4. Prost (as boring as he was!!)
5=. Schumacher
5=. Mansell

Although, put Mansell and Schumacher in a ring, and Mansell would knock the winging German into next week.

Mike

Stuart Ross UK 1996 C4

And Mansell wasn't a winger ?... On his day one of the quickest and most aggressive drivers I have ever seen, but certainly a winger !

Stuart

E. J. - 993 Alumni

I believe that Benneton was not a front runner or 'good team' as you put it when MS showed up. It took 2 or 3 years before he won his first title with them.

I think Senna is the best driver of all time. Hands down, no comparison. Wet or Dry. Top equipment or not. See if you can find the qualifying from Monaco in the late 80's (can't remember exactly what year) when it was raining and he improved his pole speed by a second each lap for like 8 laps in a row. Absoutly the best driving ever. Period. I have been searching for that footage for a long time but can't find it. I remember watching live the day he died and I called the accident on the TV before the announcers saw it. We were riding in MS's on board camera and I saw Senna shoot right off the track from that angle. A sad day.

E. J.

P.S. - My dog's name is Senna...

Mike in Chi

Thanks for the discussion guys.

I guess I should have included Fangio as a possible, since he still has the most championships. However, I think he may be tied next year, unless some team has a quantum leap forward, or Williams-BMW can continue their incredible pace of development.

Paul, I like your idea of picking the best from each decade. Just surviving in the 50s and 60s was an accomplishment.
With all the car and track safety improvements, it's easier to push to the edge today, because if you get in trouble, you still usually walk away from it.

EJ--

I like your dog's name. I thought you'd enjoy this other name:

One of the Skip Barber Race Series instructors named his dog APEX. He figured no driver ever hits the Apex.

Mike in Chi

Flying Finn

I'd say Senna, without of doubt. Although Schumi is great, he has always had his team 'built around him'.

I'd rank Hakkinen as high as Schumi (althogh this season his had so bad luck), but hey, I'm Finn.

BTW, do you guys know who has been the only driver who won Porsche super cup race twice being not the regular driver? Yep, Hakkinen, he raced twice in super cup (-93 I believe) as an visitor driver twice and won both times!

Greatest Porsche driver, maybe Ickx?

E. J. - 993 Alumni

LOL - that is funny.

Of course I think Fangio and the others were great as well. It is hard to pick a number 1. I just know (from interviews etc...) that most insiders thought Senna had the greatest car control of any driver ever - and the rain prowess furthered that belief. That is what is important to me. Would have liked to see him drive one of the 1400 hp turbo cars of the late 70's.

Jim Sullivan

When it comes to drivers and rock stars, sometimes being dead helps in your all-time rankings. With Schumacher, you have someone who still has much to offer in his driving career, yet arguably and statistically is the best ever.

Talk about Senna and the ranking waters get very murky because Senna threw away a couple good years driving for hire (remember, he would show up without practice, hop in the car, qualify on the pole and win for the measly sum of $1MM per race?) And in his last year, back with an underwhelming team he outqualified Schumacher in the first 3 races, only to be punted out in each race and ultimately overdrive the Williams into the wall to his death in Italy. As for Prost, statistics don't lie, but I watched Senna outdrive him many times, especially in the rain. And Mansell was their contemporary to his disadvantage, got his F1 title finally, but I give him immense credit for thumbing his nose at Frank Williams and going off to Indy and a Cart championship.. what ***** he had.

For controversy, I'll throw in Mario Andretti. He hung around a bit too long, not quite into Darryl Waltrip territory mind you, but look at the accomplishments he had as he spanned both the old and new eras in just about every racing venue.

bet

My vote is for Senna. I always think rain is the great equalizer because it allows talent to shine through more than equipment, and I don't believe anyone could drive better in the rain than Senna.

Mike in Chi

Hi B.E.T.

Good point about rain being a great equalizer.

In Porsches, Hans Stuck was incredible in the wet. I remember a broadcast from Sebring 4 or 5 years ago. He was truly amazing, with impossible catches and saves at every corner. He had an in=car camera, and they stayed with him lap after lap.

Much quicker than anything else in his class, and a lot of the other classes too.

Doc Vorce

Far too many of Schumacher's victories have been direct consequences of pit strategies. He has regularly failed to meet the demands of strict competition on the track. He is not Senna's equal.

Riccardo

I might be pushing it here, but does anyone remember of Stephan Bellof? Ok, thought nobody would, but apparently he was an amazingly fearless and skilled pilot of the late 70s / mid 80s.

He drove both in Formula 1 and for Porsche, so that kind of covers Mike's original quest for a good Porsche / F1 driver.

Unfortunately he died very young, mainly because he was completely mad and fearless. He was in SpA Francorchamps and attempted overtaking Ickx on the outside at Eau Rouge. Alas, the Eau Rouge did not like such shows of bravery...

On a separate note, I would rate any pilot up to the 70s as much more interesting than the current lot. What times those must have been! Drive down, practice, go out at night, get drunk, pick up some ladies... and then show up for the race the day after! None of this training / concentrating bollocks of nowadays.

here is an extract from an article:

Bellof was one of the most spectacular new talents to arrive on the Formula 1 scene in the mid-1980s, having rocketed to prominence in 1983 when he won two major Formula 2 races at the wheel of a Maurer-BMW. He joined the Tyrrell team the following year and was catching both Alain Prost's leading McLaren-TAG and the second place Toleman-Hart of Ayrton Senna when the rain soaked Monaco Grand Prix was flagged to a halt at half distance. Regarded as a future World Champion, he was killed in the 1985 Spa 1000km sports car race when he crashed his Porsche 956 at Eau Rouge trying to wrest the race lead from Jacky Ickx's similar car.