fbfisher

I found a car but the numbers don't add up. Mileage on the odometer is low 40m. Carfax shows mileage back in the spring of '01 in the low 40m. Dealer VIN # inquiry found that work had been done on the car in the winter of '01 and the mileage was over 50m. From 40 to 50 in 8 months and back down to 40 in the following 8 months. How is this possible?

* Seller says "there must be some mistake!"
* Dealer is clear that the service history reflected on their computer (30k service @ 27m, 45m service @ 48m, repair @ 50m)is accurate.
* CarFAX seems consistent with dealer info and mileage accumulation.

So, is it possible to roll back the ODO? Is there really an electronic ODO in the on board computer that can be read during a PPI? Does the on board computer really track hours of engine operation as well as miles? Can this information in the computer be reset or tampered with and go undetected?

Archives suggested that all of the above may be possible.

What do you (the experts) think? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

FlyYellow

The roll back is simple - you pop out the odometer and plug a new one in. Any of the guages can be removed and reinstalled in 5 mins flat. So here is the hints I look for:

1) Is the odometer perfectly level. If it is a bit at an angle chances are they just didn't put it in real straight.

2) look around the rim of the odometer and check if there are any indentations. If there are someone at some point has pulled the odometer.

My last comment is if it smells like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck then it probably is a duck. The carfax report gives you the mileage at inspections or smog checks. So all of these add up to a mileage altered car. DON'T BUY IT unless you get a $5k discount.

Cheers,
Boris

Phil

My last comment is if it smells like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck then it probably is a duck. The carfax report gives you the mileage at inspections or smog checks. So all of these add up to a mileage altered car. DON'T BUY IT unless you get a $5k discount.

DON'T BUY THE CAR!!!!!!!!!!!rule of thumb of a "true miles unknown" car is take Kelly Blue book divide by 2......and deduct from there!
Ie......book value is 40k...../2= 20k......less ???????? car may or may not be worth 10 to 15k,,,,reality sucks but it is what it is!

FlyYellow

at second thought i agree 50% value. the car devalues because you get mystery meat.

cheers,
boris

Harold

It is also a known fact that the odometer on the Porsche can and frequently does spoil, resulting in the requirement to replace the odometer (this happened on my 964 and numerous friends cars). I am not too sure that the odometer reading should stop any one from buying a car per se.

The condition, word of mouth recommendation from trusted Porsche Club members, the service history, the receipts of work done to the car, and most important, a thorough check by an authorised dealer (or someone you trust implicitly) all go a long way to having you end up with the right car.

Cheers


Harold

993 C2
964 C4 (ex car)
911 3.2 (ex car)

Riccardo

fbfisher,

When I was looking at 964s I remember finding one which had false mileage, it had been rolled back by about 30k kms. I know this because on calling a shop to confirm some work had been done they gave me the mileage at that time, which was higher than the current mileage.

Its very easy to do. In fact, I always suspect when I see a dealer selling 4 or 5 964s all with exactly the same mileage (ususally 70k miles).

My personal recomendation, leave that car alone. If the seller is not honest about the mileage (a petty thing really) what else hasn't he been honest about?

Martin S.

Urban Legend? With the Porsche Diagnostic Computer, is it possible to see how many hours are on the engine? I have heard it is. This may be a way to determing the actual miles if you assume the car averages 40 mph, with 1,000 hours on the engine, you get 40,000 miles. Like I said, I don't really know if it works.

If you have a friendly shop with the Porsche Diagnostic Lap Top, there may be lots of other things you can discover. I just saw one at Hergersheimer Motorsports in Lake Forest, CA...fascinating stuff.

Tim, near Boston

Harold, that's the first time I've heard anyone claim in 20 years of 911 ownership that the odo is a failure item on any model year 911.

I don't know about Singapore, but "clocking" is illegal in most if not all states in the U.S.

Of course that doesn't stop folks from doing it. During the grey market era the km-&gt;mph conversion provided a convenient opportunity to reduce the recorded mileage.

I once saw one of the first 993s in the Boston area undergoing sales prep in a local shop. The
tech was changing the speedometer. The explanation was that the one coming out was for
track use...

fbfisher

Thanks to all for jumping on this so quickly. The West Coast is just waking up so I look forward to posts from PST Rennlisters. Does anyone know if the true mileage can be determined from the on board computer, and if so, can this be tampered with as well?

I will share the sellers response when/if I get it.

fbfisher

Just talked to my local PPI shop and they confirmed that the "Bosch-Hammer" will confirm mileage on '97 and greater. He also confirmed that it is possible to make mileage adjustments in the computer when doing a performance upgrade (new chip?) but that it is expensive $700+ and probably not worth the money for rolling back so few miles (8k).

When/if I talk to the seller, I will ask him to take the car to the local P-Car dealer and have it checked.

All thoughts welcome!

Mr Michael B

Not exactly...

The true mileage will not show on any Bosch equipment, however, to my understanding, you can get an "average" mile reading by extrapolating the "hours" on the engine by some chosen average MPH (like mentioned above).

It is in no way an exact science.

Still. You can judge a cars worth by an overall inspection. At least I can. Take it all into effect (speedo reading included) and make an educated decision on any car you look at. Just have to use your head is all.

fbfisher

End Of Story: I just spoke to the seller, he said that he sold it to a dealer for $2k more than he agreed to sell it to me. BUYERS BEWARE!

Anir

fbfisher,

I was told by an unscrupulous independent dealer that you can simply pull out the speedometer gauge, unplug a wire, and slide the gauge back in. According to him, your speedometer will not work, but "neither will the odometer".

Don't know if it's true, but it sounds reasonable. I'm glad that suspicious car didn't find a home with you.

Skytop

Interesting thread!
About 2 years ago I was looking at a used '97 coupe. The mileage showed about 38K on the clock. I was very focused on looking at condition, defects and so on. My wife was with me and was able to see things that I missed. She elbowed me and signaled to come over away from the salesman. She alerted me to the fact that an oil change sticker on the back of the door showed 79K! Talk about finding the smoking gun!
So odometers are definitely turned back. Digital odometers are also vulnerable.
Due your due dilligence and always be inquiring and suspicious when buying used.

Skytop

fbfisher:
On modern computer equipped cars, the speed of the vehicle is vital to the operation of the emissions circuit. If the computer does not get proper speed input, the engine will be either turned off or run very poorly. It is not simple any longer to just 'disconnect' the speedo.
You must view the car systemically; Everything is interconnected and interdependent.