DJF1

Anir, I have ended up with almost the same values with you on the street cab! Last alignement with track/DE in mind on the cab before she retired was -1.7 negative in the front and -2.3 negative in the back with me inside the car. I loved this setup on the track with the H&R suspension and it still serves me well on the street. On my Pilot Sport Ribs and at 2K on this setup i have not noticed significant inner wear but time will tell. On the advise of my mechanic street pressures are 34-36 cold with the 18's.
By comparison the track car runs at -2.3 front and -2.7 rear. I still have tons of understeer so while I'm away the car is back for a touch up on the alignement to close the gap, but it made a huge difference when I kept 2 pounds difference HOT front to rear ( 32-34) on the track.

Anir

Steve, Greg, and Danny -

Thanks for the help. I thought the alignment might be aggressive, because the car was definitely a bit darty on the long, straight highway drive home. Of course, this might have been exacerbated by the 36 / 44 psi tire pressures.

I'll go back to my typical 34/36 psi street pressures, and give it a few days. If it still bugs me, I might scale it back a bit after Mid Ohio, since it is my daily driver.

Anir

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>When reinstalling the outboard nut on the rear control arm 2 (at its connection to the PSS-9), you need a torx bit and, I believe, an 18 mm open-ended wrench. Unfortunately, you are supposed to torque this nut when the car is loaded. When you do this, there is very little room to put in the torx bit / socket...we still had to remove some of the load off the wheel to gain enough access to the female torx portion of the bolt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Robert Henriksen:
<strong>I actually didn't know you were supposed to tighten the outer bolt of the control arm when the suspension was loaded!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">A bit of follow-up on this portion of the installation. My mechanic confirmed that you do have to slightly unload the rear wheels to access the female torx portion while reinstalling the 18 mm nut on the lower control arm. There is no other way to access this area.

Also, he did not use an impact wrench to tighten any bolt - just good ole' open-faced wrenches. Guess he's a purist. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Yes, I do realize that I not only just double-posted, but replied to myself! <img border="0" alt="[oops]" title="" src="graemlins/oops.gif" /> I need to put myself on a sabbatical from Rennlist (and further upgrades!).

viperbob

Sounds Great Anir. Hope you are enjoying it...

As far as negative camber, I just had mine redone today and have it at -2.2 front and -2.4 rear (one of my front monoballs was bad and needed to be replaced). This is my starting point for track season. Just keep track of your corner weights and alignment settings so you know what to dial in if you feel like you need to make a change.....

Now get out to Mid Ohio.... <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

DJF1

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>Steve, Greg, and Danny -

Thanks for the help. I thought the alignment might be aggressive, because the car was definitely a bit darty on the long, straight highway drive home. Of course, this might have been exacerbated by the 36 / 44 psi tire pressures.

I'll go back to my typical 34/36 psi street pressures, and give it a few days. If it still bugs me, I might scale it back a bit after Mid Ohio, since it is my daily driver.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Anir the setup will be darty due to the high negatives. While you will love the way the car turns in, it will certainly keep your attention on the street. Also do not forget that with tight sways and tight suspension you will experience a difference on uneven roads, bad roads and especially in the rain. It is not by accident that when racing in the rain racers disconnect the sways...
Not sure if for you the track perfection can be enough to keep a setup like this for the street.

Flying Finn

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>Hawk Blues are great pads, IMO. I use them on my race car. Problem is the dust is very corrosive and when you add water it can cause small rust spots on the car or wheel. I would recommend washing the car thoroughly at the end of the track day to help minimize this. I haven't really had a problem but I do keep a nice coat of wax on the car and clean the wheels promptly...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks Greg!

I always wash my car throughly next day so hopefully I won't have that problem (even though I drive my car hard etc. I want to keep my car looking good and she most likely will remain in my family 'forever', I don't want to see any rust etc.). Would Pagid Orange be better (if I try those after I've gone through these)?

Another questions:

I'm not too satisfied with my brakes...

First I had just stock set up and ended up totally loosing my brakes.
Then I installed HAWK HP pads and didn't toally loose them but had bad fade and pedal was spongy..
Yesterday at Moroso, I had still those HPs and I recently installed cooling ducts from front to the center of the brakes (not perfectly pointed to the center, but pretty good), didn't have so much fading but pedal still feels spongy and goes too deep to my liking. And I had to push almost as hard as I could (pedal veeery deep) in order to get even close to ABS lock.
I quess I brake quite late (I've always catched those 996TT & ZO6 etc. stronger car guys on braking & corners) but I would like to be able to brake harder & later and I hate that damn spongy pedal!!!
I use ATE (Blue or gold) and bleed the brakes.

I will try in few weeks at Sebring with those HAWK Blues and hope that will solve these issues.
I was also thinking braided brake lines, what do you think of that?
Or do I need bigger brakes..?
Also, how much track days I can expect to get from those HAWK blues? (HAWK HPs are totally gone after two track day)

Thanks!!!

Greg Fishman

FF,
Don't go to the braided lines. Try some other brake fluid like AP600 or Motul600. If that doesn't work then go to Castrol SRF.

<a href="http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/srf1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/srf1.htm</a>

This page has the dry and wet boiling point of different brake fluids.

<a href="http://www.proformanceusa.com/castrol/castrol_srf_brake_fluid.htm" target="_blank">http://www.proformanceusa.com/castrol/castrol_srf_brake_fluid.htm</a>

I think the P.O. would be worse from my experience. I used them on my race car and wasn't happy once I started really pushing the car and I switched to the Hawk Blues. I haven't tried anything else because the are reasonable priced (compared to Pagid) and seem to last a reasonable amount of time. The Hawk HP's are aggresive street pads right? I think these are what I use in my street ride.

Flying Finn

Grag,

You really are fast (on & off track it seems), like everyone says!

Thanks for info, I'll hold on braided lines and I think it's time to change to Motul (or even Castrol).
It's synthetic, I've heard that's a problem, no?

You're correct, HP's are supposed to be agressive street pads so I think there lies one major problem, they're just not up to the (track) task.

Thanks a lot for help!

Greg Fishman

FF,

I would just change the pads out and give it a good bleed with ATE. I haven't had any fading problems with the same set up before I switched to the Big Reds. I had what I thought was a fade problem and it turned out to be the master cylinder. Once hot I would (with out notice) get a pedal that would sink to the floor and would have to pump it to get any brake pressure. This happened at the back straight at Road Atlanta and I got really, really lucky to not hit anything. At that point we started replacing parts. MC was first and that was the culprit.

DJF1

Just my 02's Finn,

Have you tried the Pagid Oranges? I used them on my last race along with blue ATE on stock brakes and I was very happy, no fading etc. Granted TWS is a fast track with a couple of long straights to cool down the brakes, but maybe they are worth a shot before you spend more money on fluids etc.

Flying Finn

Thanks again Greg,

This is exactly what I'm going to do.

In fact I already have Hawk Blue front pads (friend of mine ordered) but I will get the rears also(he though I'd just change the fronts & keep the Hawk HP rears but I though it's better to have matching pads front rear so that I won't mess up with brake balance).

I don't think (but will keep my eye on) I have any MC issue since this is kinda consistent. Pedal was never good (hard & solid) and when brakes got hotter & hotter, pedal just went deeper and I really had to push it down hard and still didn't get good braking...

If these don't work I will take better look on MC also. Thank you again.

Danny,

I haven't tried those yet (but I've heard they're good).
I already have Hawks so I'm going to try them and as it seems they are really good. Only thing that concerns me a bit is that above mentioned rust issue. That might make me to try Pagids after these are worn but we'll see.
(BTW, why Hawks have rust issue, Pagids doesn't? Different material? I though i.e. Pagid Blue & Hawk blue were same stuff?)

Anir

I just installed a set of Kerr Friction 03 pads, on the advice of Paul Weston. I asked for pads that would work better than stock at the track, but be streetable at cold temps / low speeds, without too much noise if possible. I basically wanted pads that I could use on the drive to the track. He made the following helpful comments in an e-mail to me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><strong>"Pagid RS4.4 or maybe the Kerr Friction 03 race compounds. Both of these are carbon Kevlar based race pad materials. Kerr is made in the US, Pagid in Germany. Pagid will last a little longer but they are a bit more finicky about bed-in... Basically you need to be sure that the initial heat cycle is a gradual warm up and then they are fine.

Kerr would be slightly easier on the rotors but neither pad uses rotors as much as the Hawk 9012 (blue) that the racers like Greg are using. Pagid
also makes a RS14 compound, but it's harder on the rotors as well.

Kerr pads are generally quieter... some people leave them in the car all the time. Pagid can be driven on the street, but they usually make enough noise that people want to swap for street driving.

Dust is not harmful for either of these pads. The dust from Hawk blue compound can be difficult to clean, especially if it gets wet or you leave
it on the wheels for any length of time. For that reason, plus the rotor wear that you mentioned, causes me to steer you away from the Hawks at this
point. If you decide to convert the car to a more dedicated DE or race machine, then you may want to consider the Hawks in the future."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">They work well around town when cold, but now squeal very loudly on light stops (definitely turns heads). I'll get to try them out at Mid Ohio this weekend.

Flying Finn

Anir,

Where did you get these?

If that dusting problem (or huge rotor wear) will be too much for me, these sound really good (I assume they are very fade resistant etc. since that is what my problem seems to be).

Thanks!

Anir

FF,

From Paul Weston Motorsports (advertises in Pano), based on a rec from Greg. You can reach him at paul@westonmotorsports.com

Very helpful gentleman, with reasonable prices and fast shipping.

Flying Finn

Thanks a lot Anir!