BEAR in Kent

I have a '95 993 Coupe with M030 sport suspension(US) with 18" Fikse FM/10s and want to get new springs (progressive and lower) for street use and DE on the track. The three options I'm looking at are H&R, Eibach and ROW M030. Any recommendations? I've heard the sport H&Rs are pretty harsh for everyday use. I would appreciate any recommendations or opinions and personal accounts of any, all or others.

Thanks.

Anir

Barry,

My car has the Eibach 7209 springs (installed by the previous owner). You can check out a pic at the site below. They're OK and definitely offer the European ride height at a very attractive price. However, I can't help but feel that they are not the best option. The springs are rather soft: 120-200 lbs. according to a rep at Eibach.

The M030 ROW would represent the next step up, both in terms of stiffness and price. Many owners find this to be the most balanced choice for dual street/DE event use, and it keeps the car stock.

However, after talking it over with members like John Huang who have the H&R coilovers and the RS adjustable anti-roll bars, I have chosen this option. The springs are rated 290-310 front / 350-370 rear, which might sound stiff for road use. However, John feels that his car actually rides better (and obviously more controlled) since switching to this setup. Plus, it allows corner balancing, and some adjustments for understeer/oversteer via the sway bars. Price is about $2500.

You might check out Robin's site for more info & opinions: www.p-car.com . Good luck with your decision.

Viken

The right choice is to have a matched set of shocks and springs. Go for the ROW M030. The Eibach is too soft and the H&R is OK but neither will work as good as Porsche's sport springs.

Mike in Chi

Viken & all

when going to row M030, do you need to replace the swaybars as well?

Is it optional? And what would be the best options.

Thanks in advance,

Mike in Chi

Viken

No, you don't need to change the anti-roll bars. However, depending on the version, you will help reduce understeer a bit if you changed them. Anti-roll bars serve as fine-tuning equipment. That is why "adjustable" bars are so popular. As installed at the factory, the bars are supposed to be as follows:

Carrera / Carrera 4:

USA Front: 20 mm
USA Rear: 17 mm
ROW Front: 21 mm
ROW Rear: 18 mm

USA M030 Front: 22 mm
USA M030 Rear: 20 mm
ROW M030 Front: 22 mm
ROW M030 Rear: 20 mm

Carrera S / Carrera 4S:

USA Front: 20 mm
USA Rear: 17 mm
ROW Front: 20 mm
ROW Rear: 18 mm

USA M030 Front: 22 mm
USA M030 Rear: 18 mm
ROW M030 Front: 22 mm
ROW M030 Rear: 20 mm

Turbo:

USA Front: 22 mm
USA Rear: 19 mm
ROW Front: 22 mm
ROW Rear: 21 mm

thomas w french

Barry, I have a 95 993, as well, with M030 US suspension. I am installing the H&R sport springs this weekend. The cost for the springs is very reasonable,($270 locally) and I have been told that the springs will match the M030 US shocks pretty well.

I thought about going with the M030 ROW suspension, but the rates were softer than I wanted. The rates are similar to the Eibach springs.

BTW, per Eibach, the spring rate for the front is 88 lbs initial and 177 lbs. final. The spring rate for the rear is 171 lbs. initial and 268 lbs. final.

The H&R springs are stiffer than this, but the key is the matching of the springs and shocks. People who are dissatisfied with the H&R springs nearly all have the standard shocks, not the M030 dampers.

I am not tracking the car, but wanted a very agressive street setup that would be suitable for our bad Seattle roads.

I may go for the RS swaybars eventually, but right now I am simply trying to make my commuter car more fun to drive.

I am also installing a pair of Robin's very well-engineered mufflers. Robin does an incredible job- the quality is impeccable.

I'll keep you posted on how the springs turn out.

Pete911air

Viken,
You are correct. The Euro springs, rear Euro shocks and the 19mm rear swaybar is a very good combination and gives good turn in.

Pete.

Mike in Chi

Viken

thanks for the response.

Very helpful, as always.

M in C

D.G..

Barry,

I had the ROW M030 springs and struts on my '95 Cabriolet for about a year. They were stiffer than stock, but were still comfortable enough for every day driving. However, when driven agressively at 'speed' they were to mushy, even scary in certain circumstances.

I wanted my car feel safer so I replaced them with H&R coil overs. I haven't looked back. The H&Rs are as compliant as M030s over little bumps, but stiffen up after the first inch or so of travel. You can feel the progressive nature of the struts when driving around town, much more so than the M030s; but they don't feel harsh. At 'speed' they feel worlds better.

If you don't care about 'near the limit' composure, then go for the M030's. If you do, then go for the H&R's.

Dave

Anir

Barry,

John Huang recently sent me this very helpful e-mail, after I contacted him with similar questions. Like Dave, he is very happy with the H&R coilovers:

John Huang wrote:

>"I did not compare the H&R setup to the M030 -- simply to the stock setup with Eibach lowering springs. The later is the setup that was on my 993 when I bought it last August. If you have experience on the track and enjoy a finely tuned system, the H&R coilover with RS adjustable stabilizer bars is the only way to go IMNSHO. Personally, if you can spend the extra $1k or so for the difference between the ROW M030 and the H&R/RS setup, I would not even consider the ROW setup.
>
>Do the H&R/RS setup. If you don't like it, I'll buy you a nice dinner at VIR next time I see you. I'm dead serious.
>
> I'm perfectly happy with this setup on the street -- it's a bit firmer
than the stock suspension, but much better controlled. I use the C2S as my
daily driver. On the track, it's great. I think this is the perfect combination setup.
>
> Alignment -- I use the RS alignment specifications (check Bruce Anderson's
> book or the 993 manual). The only difference is that I personally like -zero- toe. I would recommend just a tad bit of toe-in (maybe 1/16" or so) for most people. Overall, I get even wear on the street with just a tad bit more wear on the outside of my Hoosiers at the track -- but not enough to make me want to add more negative camber."

Greg Fishman had a chance to evaluate John's car at VIR and was impressed. I'm sure that the M030 ROW suspension is great, but the H&R coilovers seem to be a very nice option without a lot of sacrifices other than $1500 - $1700 additional cost.

David T.

Dave - If I'm not mistaken you also used to have JRZ single adjustable setup (which I bought from you) - can you compare the PERFORMANCE of JRZ vs. H&R?

Thanks!

Robert Henriksen

Pete, I've got the RoW M030 - the complete set, springs/shocks/sway bars. How does the 19mm rear compare w. what I've already got?

thanks,

RNH

D.G..

David T,

As you know the compression damping of the single way JRZ struts is not adjustable. They are valved for the track. No amount of adjustable rebound damping changes that fact. On the streets this results in harsher ride than the H&R's.

The spring rates also affect the ride. The JRZ's need to be mated to stiff springs. Otherwise the suspension will travel too far and the struts will top or bottom out. (They're much shorter than stock.) This will also contribute to a harsh ride.

For track use, the JRZ's will give you a degree of control beyond what you'll get from H&Rs. But for street use IMHO they're a bit too extreme.

David G

BEAR in Kent

I appreciate everyones inputs and opinions. Looks like the Eibachs are out (confirms other opinions I've heard), M030 and H&R are still in the running.....and boy the H&R coilovers sound tempting, but$$$.

Hey Thomas! How did your H&R installation go over the weekend? What's your opinion of the new springs???

Thanks,

Barry

Fred R. C4S

Barry,

FWIW - I had H&R sport springs on my C4S with standard shocks. Others on the board have already mentioned the mismatch of spring and damping rates this can cause. However, a greater problem in terms of everyday use was the fact that the H&R's dropped the car to the Euro RS ride height. It was just too low. I drove it for two summers and decided to change to the ROW M030 setup. It's a bit stiffer, but more controlled and less chance of bottoming the front of the car. If you go with H&R's, you should definitely consider one of Gert's front protection bars.