Kristoffer

I am installing (simpson) 6 point seatbeats in my stock 993. After replacing thge seats I realized that the Seat track is touching the sub belts keeping me from adjusting them!!

How can I solve this?

BTW I placed one washer under the track to add space but it is not enough!!

Thanks

Kristoffer

Ruf-Racer

This has ben around but it is worth reading!
<a href="http://www.corner-carvers.com/wiki/index.php?Notes%20on%20Race%20Car%20Harnesses" target="_blank">http://www.corner-carvers.com/wiki/index.php?Notes%20on%20Race%20Car%20Harnesses</a>

Happy motoring!

Kristoffer

That is great reading!! (BTW I do have the 3" simpson belts.) But anyone that is into racing (or has a TV) knows that no matter how perfect your saftey system is there is always that chance of something going wrong at high speed. Or even low speed since its not how fast your going but how fast you stop! But I have to believe that no matter what, Having a 6pt belt (used correctly of course) in my car has to be better the a 3pt.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Great post Roland! had no idea that's what did in Jochen Rindt. I have been saying for years that the main purpose of the sub belt is to keep the other belts in the proper locations during an impact - not to keep you from sliding under the lap belts.

I am going to use that as a link in my DIY page.

Anyone understand this part:

<strong> [quote]To get the right geometry the crotch straps must be widely separated as they approach the lap belt, just like a parachute harness. Easily the best way to do this is to take them up through D-rings on the lap belts. Every Formula One car has this kind of system. Taking the twin crotch straps (or, worse, a single one) via a single latch plate to the bottom of the buckle is a compromise aimed at cutting cost and adding convenience, mainly for Sedan cars.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The next paragraph says that TRW (Sabelt and Sparco belt makers) fits his description, but I know my Sparco setup doesnt have this. I think I get the gist, but hope others will chime in.

E. J.

Greg Fishman

I read a paper a fellow wrote and posted on the email list. Basically he said you should do one of two things in regards to harnesses, etc.

1)Leave the car 100% stock. This set up has been crash tested and proved to be effective.

2) Prep car to the standards that the SCCA has put forth. Basically full roll cage or bar, dedicated seats, etc. This set up has also been tested and effective in protecting the driver.

His contention is that when you start making changes that are in between these two levels you are a test pilot and how well you will survive (if at all) an accident is unproven.

6pt harnesses where not designed to work with the stock seats in 993's. Kristoffer you might be better off with 6pts or they might cause much worse injuries than the stock set up. Do you want to chance it?

I did the harness bar with the harness over the stock seats and yes it help me stay in the car better but in a serious accident would the belts slipped off my shoulder, or would I have submarined under the belts. I don't know? But when I instruct I will either use a full race set up or the 3 pts. I won't even think about riding in a BMW with those silly 4 pt harnesses, what a waste.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

[quote]Originally posted by Kristoffer:
<strong>I am installing (simpson) 6 point seatbeats in my stock 993.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Simpson makes a diferent bolt in end piece that has a longer throat that will cure this problem. I know because my old job used to have a Simpson store on site and I got mine there. I have since learned that OG racing also sells them as I am sure most race shops that sell harnesses will. This should be a simple fix for you, you just need to find the right part.

Hell, now that I think about it, I probably have them in the bottom of my harness box in the garage since I have gone the bolt through route and no longer use them. Send me your address and I will look tonight and send them to you.

E. J.

SundayDriver

[quote]Originally posted by E. J.:
<strong>Great post Roland! had no idea that's what did in Jochen Rindt. I have been saying for years that the main purpose of the sub belt is to keep the other belts in the proper locations during an impact - not to keep you from sliding under the lap belts.

I am going to use that as a link in my DIY page.

Anyone understand this part:

[qb]

The next paragraph says that TRW (Sabelt and Sparco belt makers) fits his description, but I know my Sparco setup doesnt have this. I think I get the gist, but hope others will chime in.

E. J.</strong><hr></blockquote>

As far as the belts, the mfg's make a few different models. The specific models that he talked about (at least the ones I know about) have the anti-sub straps that loop over the lap belts and then under you. You can see the Simpsons on their website - they are different than the standard 6 points. Willans is the same and I assume that is the case with Sparco.

Anti-Sub straps serve one basic purpose with upright seating positions - they keep the lap belt in place as there is little chance (but there is some chance) of sliding under the lap belt. In a lay down seating position, they certainly keep you from sliding under the belts. It is not uncommon for drivers in those cars to wear a cup when racing.

Greg Fishman

[quote]Originally posted by Mark D - TT Alumni:
<strong> In a lay down seating position, they certainly keep you from sliding under the belts. It is not uncommon for drivers in those cars to wear a cup when racing.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Speaking of... Did you see the Speedvision World Challenge Touring race at Road Atlanta last year. Guy wreck in the esses and he got out of the car clutching and rolling. If you know what I mean. Cup sounds like a good idea.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Very intersting Mark. I hadn't heard of this new style and line of thought. I know that one harness company (maybe Teamtech) has done this for a little while, but I didn't know the big three or four had. I wonder why the new d ring setup doesnt get mentioned on the Simpson page? Just in the spec list like it's been there for years.



I also checked out Sparco and Willians and couldnt find any info. The interesting point is I re-checked Simpsons page and there is no mention of a new or different mounting point for the sub belt?

Kristoffer, I have to agree with Greg's points. I too did it the incorrect way for 2 years - luckily I was never the test pilot for my setup. I second his thoughts on the ridiculous BMW 2 inch 4 point belts that they all seem to have. I guess you just have to try and figure out what you are comfortable with. After two years and getting married (as well as working in the racing industry for long enough to see first hand what can happen) I decided that I needed to be more safety conscience. Damn a few $ later lost on resale for drilling the tub of my street car for roll bars and harnesses. In closing let me just say that if you are sticking with the stock seats (as many, many people do), buy one of the harnesses that includes the chest strap that connects the two shoulder harnesses at the chest. This will prevent you from splitting out between the belts which has been known to kill people, or at the minimum, break their sternum bone (ouch!).

I suggest the teamtech harness with the extra padding and the sternum strap. You can see it <a href="http://www.teamtechmotorsports.com/harness.htm" target="_blank">here</a>. I also know that Simpson makes a shoulder strap with the sternum strap built in, and OG racing just started carrying a big fat belt that can be used with any harness - it just clips around both shoulder harnesses, as well as some outfit out in California that sells a seat halo that fits around the top of the seat and the shoulder straps go through a loop on either side - the shoulders cnat open any wider than the halo loops.

Also, don't forget a good neck collar - always.

E. J.

Rick

Greg,

I can already hear the race prep meeting..."Cup Check, Cup Check..."

SundayDriver

[quote]Originally posted by Rick:
<strong>Greg,

I can already hear the race prep meeting..."Cup Check, Cup Check..."</strong><hr></blockquote>

So I guess I can say that I have two cup cars.

Ragin' Bajan

Interesting reading. It certainly makes sense to either stay stock or 'do it right'. For my purposes (7ish track days/year, no racing), I think 'doing it right' would be:
1) 6-point harness
2) harness guide bar
3) racing seat
4) since some tracks require passenger & driver set-up be the same, multiply by two

A roll bar would be nice, but I'm not sure if it's overkill for Driver Education sessions. The danger with 5+ point harnesses is if you roll, you may be held in place while the roof caves in.

Now, I'm not prepared to put a roll cage in my car, bolt-in or otherwise. Also, the cost is a strong deterent. However, I would like to be held more securely. I've seen some auto-crossers use just a 3" lap belt to hold them in place, over which they used their stock 3-point harness. Any views on this? Wouldn't this be no less dangerous than using the stock seat belt, and perhaps safer? The lapbelt would be attatched to the same points as the stock harness. I presume the seat bolts would not be loaded any more than if just the stock belt were used, and since it would be tighter, would hold my hips in place better, should there be a crash . Or would this prevent loading on the shoulder belt part and thus allow my upper body to slam forward more?

Is this basically a hypocritical approach given my first statement: stay stock or do it right, or is it a reasonable approach to improve my stability while not compromising saftey?