Speeding ticket advice (long and in 3 separate parts)
02-24-2003, 03:16 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 857
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes I do, and that brings up another good question how can he see his speedometer with no lights on? I have seen them do this several other times sneaking up behind people with their lights off. This town sucks.
02-24-2003, 04:08 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Absolutely beautiful Pete, I cant say enough about the info!!
I seem to get my share of tickets (3 a year average). This will come in handy.
I agree with a previous post about having this posted on Robins site p-car.com
0.02 <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
I seem to get my share of tickets (3 a year average). This will come in handy.
I agree with a previous post about having this posted on Robins site p-car.com
0.02 <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
02-24-2003, 04:09 PM
#19
Banned
Peter,
awesome post! Thanks.
GTR,
you have my sympathy.
I had an Australian cop pull me over one night on an empty country highway and tell me that he had followed me for 20km (12 miles) without his lights on.
He gave me one ticket for speeding by 15mph, and another for letting my tire touch the double white line in the middle of the road "10 kms back". I lost half the points off my licence in one awful night. What an a**hole. <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
Surely his action of driving 20km without lights on was more dangerous than my driving 75mph in a 60mph zone on an empty highway???
awesome post! Thanks.
GTR,
you have my sympathy.
I had an Australian cop pull me over one night on an empty country highway and tell me that he had followed me for 20km (12 miles) without his lights on.
He gave me one ticket for speeding by 15mph, and another for letting my tire touch the double white line in the middle of the road "10 kms back". I lost half the points off my licence in one awful night. What an a**hole. <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
Surely his action of driving 20km without lights on was more dangerous than my driving 75mph in a 60mph zone on an empty highway???
02-24-2003, 04:48 PM
#20
Addict & Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
GTR
The points/errors you raised may be used for impeachment purposes at trial, but do not invalidate the summons (ticket), nor more important the charging document ("criminal information") which is the original ticket signed by the prosecutor & filed with the court. MO licenses do not all start w/the same #. Social security #s are used unless opted out & an alternative is used which starts w/a letter.
I won't review Peter's fine, painstaking work which includes much valid information, other than to note there are also a number of books/websites containing similar guidance for those interested in this subject (do a google search*), it is very CA specific and, GTR, it is largely inconsistent w/MO caselaw & statutes (& I suspect w/most states). E.g., the cited CA Vehicle Code "section 40803" is part of CA's rather unique "speed trap" legislation.
*E.g., <a href="http://helpigotaticket.com/" target="_blank">Help I Got a Ticket</a> (much CA info & links to several informative sites)
The points/errors you raised may be used for impeachment purposes at trial, but do not invalidate the summons (ticket), nor more important the charging document ("criminal information") which is the original ticket signed by the prosecutor & filed with the court. MO licenses do not all start w/the same #. Social security #s are used unless opted out & an alternative is used which starts w/a letter.
I won't review Peter's fine, painstaking work which includes much valid information, other than to note there are also a number of books/websites containing similar guidance for those interested in this subject (do a google search*), it is very CA specific and, GTR, it is largely inconsistent w/MO caselaw & statutes (& I suspect w/most states). E.g., the cited CA Vehicle Code "section 40803" is part of CA's rather unique "speed trap" legislation.
*E.g., <a href="http://helpigotaticket.com/" target="_blank">Help I Got a Ticket</a> (much CA info & links to several informative sites)
02-24-2003, 05:04 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 857
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dan you are either a lawyer or one of the smartest people I have met. You know an quite a bit about the law. The wrong DL number started with a 7 so if the "other" numbers they use start with a letter it is a typing error in their eyes. It is very aggrevating to get a ticket when being paced.
I ran the distance with a measuring wheel being the **** engineer that I am. It is approximately 2,200 ft of roadway that he paced me. Now the p car will go 0-65 in that distance fairly easy but the 4,000 lb 6 cyl SUV will not. It is mechanically impossible for the car to reach 65 in that distance. You have to remember that 1/3 of that distance I was slowing down to stop. I think someone was told to bring in some revenue.
I ran the distance with a measuring wheel being the **** engineer that I am. It is approximately 2,200 ft of roadway that he paced me. Now the p car will go 0-65 in that distance fairly easy but the 4,000 lb 6 cyl SUV will not. It is mechanically impossible for the car to reach 65 in that distance. You have to remember that 1/3 of that distance I was slowing down to stop. I think someone was told to bring in some revenue.
02-24-2003, 05:53 PM
#22
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
GTR
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Dan you are either a lawyer or one of the smartest people I have met. You know an quite a bit about the law. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Trust me, you don't ever want your spouse to meet Dan.
Peter
Thanks for a great post (and all that typing - ouch)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Dan you are either a lawyer or one of the smartest people I have met. You know an quite a bit about the law. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Trust me, you don't ever want your spouse to meet Dan.
Peter
Thanks for a great post (and all that typing - ouch)
02-24-2003, 06:12 PM
#23
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
An alternative way to get out of a speeding ticket:
Cop pulls a guy over for speeding and says "Sir, it's Friday, I'm tired and want to go home. If you can give me an excuse I've never heard before, I'll let you go. Now, why were you speeding?"
Guy, without missing a beat, "Officer, last week my wife ran off with a highwaypatrolman, and I thought you were him, bringing her back."
Cop: "Have a nice weekend,sir."
.
.
.
.
(and if you saw my post of this in the lounge, sorry I bored you)
Cop pulls a guy over for speeding and says "Sir, it's Friday, I'm tired and want to go home. If you can give me an excuse I've never heard before, I'll let you go. Now, why were you speeding?"
Guy, without missing a beat, "Officer, last week my wife ran off with a highwaypatrolman, and I thought you were him, bringing her back."
Cop: "Have a nice weekend,sir."
.
.
.
.
(and if you saw my post of this in the lounge, sorry I bored you)
02-24-2003, 07:59 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
GTR
I would check whether it is legal for the cop to pace you (or drive at all) at night without any lights on. If so (and I hope so), he may not want to state in court that he was on the road at night with no lights. I can't think of many things more potentially lethal on the road than driving at night with no lights. What a hypocrite! That really makes my blood boil. Any remaining notion (not that there was one) that speed enforcement is about safety rather than revenue is completely blown. <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
I would check whether it is legal for the cop to pace you (or drive at all) at night without any lights on. If so (and I hope so), he may not want to state in court that he was on the road at night with no lights. I can't think of many things more potentially lethal on the road than driving at night with no lights. What a hypocrite! That really makes my blood boil. Any remaining notion (not that there was one) that speed enforcement is about safety rather than revenue is completely blown. <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
02-24-2003, 08:17 PM
#25
Race Director
Thread Starter
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by GTR 993:
<strong>Peter how about being paced. I got a ticket and the officer paced me. 65 in a 45. It was at night and his lights were off until he decided to pull me over and then he turned his driving lights on and his patrol lights. In addition he wrote down the vehicle I was driving was Black when in fact it is dark blue. Not only that the Drivers License number is one digit off on the ticket. But the lawyer I have says that is no big deal because all of the Drivers license for my state start with the same number. And the number that he wrote down starts with a 7 not the usual 4. All of this sounds like a big deal to me and not to the lawyer. I think maybe I need a new lawyer. Any ideas on this?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Pacing is tough. Did you see the officer at all before the lights? Did he catch up to you? If so, he was closing and therefore by definition going faster than you. The other stuff about getting details wrong might be useful if the situation is such that you could say he was too distracted or perhaps mixed up your car with another.
<strong>Peter how about being paced. I got a ticket and the officer paced me. 65 in a 45. It was at night and his lights were off until he decided to pull me over and then he turned his driving lights on and his patrol lights. In addition he wrote down the vehicle I was driving was Black when in fact it is dark blue. Not only that the Drivers License number is one digit off on the ticket. But the lawyer I have says that is no big deal because all of the Drivers license for my state start with the same number. And the number that he wrote down starts with a 7 not the usual 4. All of this sounds like a big deal to me and not to the lawyer. I think maybe I need a new lawyer. Any ideas on this?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Pacing is tough. Did you see the officer at all before the lights? Did he catch up to you? If so, he was closing and therefore by definition going faster than you. The other stuff about getting details wrong might be useful if the situation is such that you could say he was too distracted or perhaps mixed up your car with another.
02-24-2003, 08:32 PM
#26
Race Director
Thread Starter
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by JPS:
<strong>
Isn't the calculation on the beam width dependent upon the radar band? For example, X pretty much covers half the planet, K is tighter, Ka is tigher still, and Laser is something like 18" wide at a car at a reasonable distance.
Thoughts?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not sure about the bands. I dug through a book and it says that the calculation above works for "radar". In any case, all the other points about strongest/largest signal still apply.
Now with Laser, it makes it easier for the cop to target a single car, but it's still not foolproof. You can still make many of the same points regarding other traffic, barriers, etc. The way a laser works is to take a bunch of readings very quickly and then averages them out. The problem is that if the laser is not on exactly the same spot when all those measurements occur, it will read false. It is pretty much impossible for it to be perfectly on the same spot. One quick flinch from the licence plate to the windshield tells the unit the car traveled, say 5 feet in a split second, which can totally skew the reading. Ask the cop if the laser was dash mounted or hand held, if hand held make the points above.
Some laser guns also use more than one beam (I think one uses 3), that supposedly allow locking a reading more quickly, but also introduce the same beam width issues radar has.
According to a May 1997 Car and Driver article, a judge in NJ ruled laser so inaccurate that it was ruled inadmissable in NJ. I have no idea if that has changed in the past 6 years though.
<strong>
Isn't the calculation on the beam width dependent upon the radar band? For example, X pretty much covers half the planet, K is tighter, Ka is tigher still, and Laser is something like 18" wide at a car at a reasonable distance.
Thoughts?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not sure about the bands. I dug through a book and it says that the calculation above works for "radar". In any case, all the other points about strongest/largest signal still apply.
Now with Laser, it makes it easier for the cop to target a single car, but it's still not foolproof. You can still make many of the same points regarding other traffic, barriers, etc. The way a laser works is to take a bunch of readings very quickly and then averages them out. The problem is that if the laser is not on exactly the same spot when all those measurements occur, it will read false. It is pretty much impossible for it to be perfectly on the same spot. One quick flinch from the licence plate to the windshield tells the unit the car traveled, say 5 feet in a split second, which can totally skew the reading. Ask the cop if the laser was dash mounted or hand held, if hand held make the points above.
Some laser guns also use more than one beam (I think one uses 3), that supposedly allow locking a reading more quickly, but also introduce the same beam width issues radar has.
According to a May 1997 Car and Driver article, a judge in NJ ruled laser so inaccurate that it was ruled inadmissable in NJ. I have no idea if that has changed in the past 6 years though.
02-24-2003, 09:08 PM
#27
Addict & Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by PeterS:
<strong>The way a laser works is to take a bunch of readings very quickly and then averages them out. ...It is pretty much impossible for it to be perfectly on the same spot.
According to a May 1997 Car and Driver article, a judge in NJ ruled laser so inaccurate that it was ruled inadmissable in NJ. I have no idea if that has changed in the past 6 years though.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Modern laser pulse units have a beam spread of about 3 ft @ 1000 ft, read speed with as many as 60 pulses all w/in about a 1/2 sec., employ sophisticated error detection algorithms (not avgs) to catch gun movement, etc. & report an error message, not a false speed, if the gun is moved too much or if there are other algorithm computation anomalies.
Laser is alive & well in NJ. What C&D didn't report is a year later the same Judge (Superior Court Judge Reginald Stanton) re-examined laser in a new case, found it to be reliable based on additional testing & his decision was affirmed on appeal.
<strong>The way a laser works is to take a bunch of readings very quickly and then averages them out. ...It is pretty much impossible for it to be perfectly on the same spot.
According to a May 1997 Car and Driver article, a judge in NJ ruled laser so inaccurate that it was ruled inadmissable in NJ. I have no idea if that has changed in the past 6 years though.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Modern laser pulse units have a beam spread of about 3 ft @ 1000 ft, read speed with as many as 60 pulses all w/in about a 1/2 sec., employ sophisticated error detection algorithms (not avgs) to catch gun movement, etc. & report an error message, not a false speed, if the gun is moved too much or if there are other algorithm computation anomalies.
Laser is alive & well in NJ. What C&D didn't report is a year later the same Judge (Superior Court Judge Reginald Stanton) re-examined laser in a new case, found it to be reliable based on additional testing & his decision was affirmed on appeal.
02-24-2003, 09:18 PM
#28
Addict & Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by GTR 993:
<strong>Dan you are either a lawyer or one of the smartest people I have met.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">GTR
Thanks for the kind words. However, the two are not mutually exclusive, and if the later is true, you need to meet more people. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
BTW, you have a Private Message.
<strong>Dan you are either a lawyer or one of the smartest people I have met.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">GTR
Thanks for the kind words. However, the two are not mutually exclusive, and if the later is true, you need to meet more people. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
BTW, you have a Private Message.
02-24-2003, 10:14 PM
#29
Instructor
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great stuff Pete!!
This should definetely be a FAQ somewhere. Local laws will be slightly different dependant on where on the globe you are, but this is good resource material
I myself have been thru similar instances with moderate success. Information like this would have helped a great deal....
BR/Phil...
This should definetely be a FAQ somewhere. Local laws will be slightly different dependant on where on the globe you are, but this is good resource material
I myself have been thru similar instances with moderate success. Information like this would have helped a great deal....
BR/Phil...
02-25-2003, 02:10 AM
#30
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern WA State
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peter, thank you. You da man to beat The Man. In the past ten yrs I've had several 'encounters' with the constabulary but only three resulting in citations, all of which were dismissed in court. I of course availed myself of the expertise of knowledgable attorneys to the tune of about $250 - 350. No insurance spanking and no record with the DMV. Not a bad price to pay at least in this state. Clearly it is best to be respectful but definitely state you know how fast you were going and to keep both hands on the wheel until spoken to. We P-Car drivers are 'good stops' just for the PR the police derive from the satisfied glances of passersby glad to see those 'arrogant sports car guys' getting what they deserve. It helps to keep your eyes open and try to think like the police as to where a target may be traveling too fast and an easy score. Also a V-1 is a prerequsite and foot response from throttle to brake with the same reaction time top fuel drag racers possess (in reverse order) doesn't hurt either! Keep up the great work.
Tom
911 targa (993 transplant)
97 Boxster
74 914
96 993tt on its way as I speak (can't sleep, can't eat, I hope it arrives soon, I can't hold out much longer).
Tom
911 targa (993 transplant)
97 Boxster
74 914
96 993tt on its way as I speak (can't sleep, can't eat, I hope it arrives soon, I can't hold out much longer).