Dedicated track car- need your opinion
09-08-2002, 06:28 PM
#16
[quote]Originally posted by DJF1:
<strong>I remember though that the best fun laps I ever had were in the rain running on slicks. It was not competition, just practice runs and for the first time I was able to learn throttle steering and weight transfering.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
There's a chain of kiddie kart tracks called Malibu fun centers around here. Once I went out in the rain with a their kiddie karts, which probably only had about 10 hp. But it was a blast! I was sliding around every turn, full opposite lock, throttle steering, etc. Next time it rains, I'm definately going back.
Just a little clarification, the SM series uses modified mazda miata cars, so they are not exactly like karts. And I don't think your weight would be an issue. You can run the larger engined cars (1.8L vs 1.6L) where there is a higher min weight. I don't know the specifics for the SRf series, but there is probably something similar. If you are below the min weight, you have to put ballast in your car, to keep the field competitive.
The SRF are more purpose built cars, and they are not exactly small either. They are single seater cars and you'll need to get a trailer for these.
Here's an image:
Jeff
<strong>I remember though that the best fun laps I ever had were in the rain running on slicks. It was not competition, just practice runs and for the first time I was able to learn throttle steering and weight transfering.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
There's a chain of kiddie kart tracks called Malibu fun centers around here. Once I went out in the rain with a their kiddie karts, which probably only had about 10 hp. But it was a blast! I was sliding around every turn, full opposite lock, throttle steering, etc. Next time it rains, I'm definately going back.
Just a little clarification, the SM series uses modified mazda miata cars, so they are not exactly like karts. And I don't think your weight would be an issue. You can run the larger engined cars (1.8L vs 1.6L) where there is a higher min weight. I don't know the specifics for the SRf series, but there is probably something similar. If you are below the min weight, you have to put ballast in your car, to keep the field competitive.
The SRF are more purpose built cars, and they are not exactly small either. They are single seater cars and you'll need to get a trailer for these.
Here's an image:
Jeff
09-08-2002, 07:40 PM
#17
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Not sure you should compare the Spec Miatas to the SRF. I know on the tighter tracks like mid ohio they run the same times as a well driven prepared 993 race car. ON the longer tracks like VIR their top speed on the straights keeps them about 2 seconds a lap slower then the aforementioned 993 RAce cars.
E. J.
E. J.
09-08-2002, 08:13 PM
#18
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EJ,
FYI here are the track records at Mid Ohio for the Run Offs.
The SM isn't a national class yet.
Qualify 1:40.438 80.646 BJ Zacharias Cinc Spec Racer Ford 10/9/1997
Race 1:40.775 80.377 Tom Van Camp WMch Spec Racer Ford 10/12/1997
The fastest C car (Hank's old 993RSCS) at Mid Ohio was just under 1:40 in practice. The race and qualifying sessions were wet.
At a recent regional event the SRF's were about 1:43 and higher.
What I am getting at is that it takes a pro to drive a SRF as fast as a well set up 993 race car with an average club driver.
Neverless the SRF's would be a fun and relatively cheap way to race.
FYI here are the track records at Mid Ohio for the Run Offs.
The SM isn't a national class yet.
Qualify 1:40.438 80.646 BJ Zacharias Cinc Spec Racer Ford 10/9/1997
Race 1:40.775 80.377 Tom Van Camp WMch Spec Racer Ford 10/12/1997
The fastest C car (Hank's old 993RSCS) at Mid Ohio was just under 1:40 in practice. The race and qualifying sessions were wet.
At a recent regional event the SRF's were about 1:43 and higher.
What I am getting at is that it takes a pro to drive a SRF as fast as a well set up 993 race car with an average club driver.
Neverless the SRF's would be a fun and relatively cheap way to race.
09-09-2002, 08:25 AM
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Okay Greg, I'll play your game. My comparison was certainly not meant to be exact, just approximations. And I cartainly didnot envision Hank's old RSCS as the 993 race car in the example. To be honest, I was thinking of your car or maybe Jerry's - more stock than Hank's.
I was trying to take the driver out of it too. I think that if you had one car on the track at a time and the same guy drove two different cars back to back that were capable of 1-2 seconds of eachother, without some timing system, he would not notice the difference. Of course if both cars are on the track at the same time and both are driven well, then the 1-2 second advantage will be readily aparent.
I guess I was just trying to say that for $25k a SRF is about as fast as a 993 race car (not cup car or RS) at a lot of tracks. Sounds like good bang for the buck to me.
What about the RAdical vs. the 993 or even the RSCS? Still good bang for the buck.
E. J.
I was trying to take the driver out of it too. I think that if you had one car on the track at a time and the same guy drove two different cars back to back that were capable of 1-2 seconds of eachother, without some timing system, he would not notice the difference. Of course if both cars are on the track at the same time and both are driven well, then the 1-2 second advantage will be readily aparent.
I guess I was just trying to say that for $25k a SRF is about as fast as a 993 race car (not cup car or RS) at a lot of tracks. Sounds like good bang for the buck to me.
What about the RAdical vs. the 993 or even the RSCS? Still good bang for the buck.
E. J.
09-09-2002, 12:23 PM
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Greg & EJ - I'm game for this...
Yes the lap times are very similar between the SRF and a race prepped 993. On some tracks the SRF will be faster, on others the 993. How they do that is very different however. The SRF never slows down, has decent acceleration up to 100 mph but then falls way off. Here are some points of comparison at Mid-Ohio.
SRF top speed entering 7 - 110 mph
My TT - 160 mph
993 race - 140?
When I was there, Greg was about 2 seconds faster, as I recall. He would pull me at the end of the straights, and I would tend to catch up in the corners.
I was out with the GT-2 once. He blew by me down the back straight, passing me at about the kink (6). Had to be going 40 mph faster than I was and had ~30 car lengths on me when he started to brake for 7. I made half that back entering 7, caught him at the exit of 11, he pulled out through Thunder Valley, I was on his tail entering the front straight and he walked away. Close again exiting 1, but he opened up a lead that I almost made back by entry to the back straight. At that point, he was gone.
The Radical is a different league. It is capable of 10-15 seconds faster than the 993, SRF or GT-2. It will stick with the GT-2 down the straights (not quite the same acceleration, but close and it's higher exit speeds will make it even on long straights) and outcorner production based cars by an absolutley silly level.
My feeling:
Best racing bang for the buck - SRF
Best fast driving bang for the buch - Radical
Now if you guys would buy Radicals, there would be bigger fields and even better racing.
Yes the lap times are very similar between the SRF and a race prepped 993. On some tracks the SRF will be faster, on others the 993. How they do that is very different however. The SRF never slows down, has decent acceleration up to 100 mph but then falls way off. Here are some points of comparison at Mid-Ohio.
SRF top speed entering 7 - 110 mph
My TT - 160 mph
993 race - 140?
When I was there, Greg was about 2 seconds faster, as I recall. He would pull me at the end of the straights, and I would tend to catch up in the corners.
I was out with the GT-2 once. He blew by me down the back straight, passing me at about the kink (6). Had to be going 40 mph faster than I was and had ~30 car lengths on me when he started to brake for 7. I made half that back entering 7, caught him at the exit of 11, he pulled out through Thunder Valley, I was on his tail entering the front straight and he walked away. Close again exiting 1, but he opened up a lead that I almost made back by entry to the back straight. At that point, he was gone.
The Radical is a different league. It is capable of 10-15 seconds faster than the 993, SRF or GT-2. It will stick with the GT-2 down the straights (not quite the same acceleration, but close and it's higher exit speeds will make it even on long straights) and outcorner production based cars by an absolutley silly level.
My feeling:
Best racing bang for the buck - SRF
Best fast driving bang for the buch - Radical
Now if you guys would buy Radicals, there would be bigger fields and even better racing.
09-09-2002, 01:31 PM
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All, this is a great thread, perhaps one of the best I've read in a while. That being said, I'm going ahead with my plans to turn my 993 C4S into a dedicated track car over the winter. Here are some of the data points relevant to my decision:
- I'm not planning on racing next year, although I may try one Club Race if I feel that I'm ready for it.
- I love this car on the track, and want to make it as safe and fast as I can. It has a cup suspension, Evo seats, harnesses, fire extinguisher, and track tires. A roll cage and a few more bits will be added to round things out.
- The trailer and other gear that I buy should work as well for any future race car as it will for the 993. I guess I could end up in a bigger car than the 993, but that seems unlikely.
- I'm fine with making the 993 into something that isn't road legal. I have two other p-cars that aren't as much fun on the track, but are as much or more fun on the road. The Boxster is a much better canyon carver, especially with the top down.
- I know that it's expensive, and after the cup suspension, seats, tires, etc., I've already spent quite a bit. But it's well worth it to me, and I can't think of any other way that I'd get anywhere near as much enjoyment out of the 993.
After another season of DEs, etc., I'll decide what to do with respect to a full-blown race car. A p-car racer would obviously be fun, but perhaps I'll go the SRF or Radical route. No matter what, I'll have set up and used my 993 well, getting everything that I can out of it, and that's the important thing.
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
- I'm not planning on racing next year, although I may try one Club Race if I feel that I'm ready for it.
- I love this car on the track, and want to make it as safe and fast as I can. It has a cup suspension, Evo seats, harnesses, fire extinguisher, and track tires. A roll cage and a few more bits will be added to round things out.
- The trailer and other gear that I buy should work as well for any future race car as it will for the 993. I guess I could end up in a bigger car than the 993, but that seems unlikely.
- I'm fine with making the 993 into something that isn't road legal. I have two other p-cars that aren't as much fun on the track, but are as much or more fun on the road. The Boxster is a much better canyon carver, especially with the top down.
- I know that it's expensive, and after the cup suspension, seats, tires, etc., I've already spent quite a bit. But it's well worth it to me, and I can't think of any other way that I'd get anywhere near as much enjoyment out of the 993.
After another season of DEs, etc., I'll decide what to do with respect to a full-blown race car. A p-car racer would obviously be fun, but perhaps I'll go the SRF or Radical route. No matter what, I'll have set up and used my 993 well, getting everything that I can out of it, and that's the important thing.
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
09-09-2002, 03:20 PM
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Thank you Mark, for explaining it in a way I never could (and I am sure neither could the Fish). It is amazing when a car is faster in the corners but slower on the straights. People don't realize that they spend a lot of time at the track either turning or transitioning to turn - probably more than going straight.
Skip, why not sell your car for the most you can get now (before the changes) and buy DJs - I here its for sale <a href="http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/~dj/" target="_blank">here</a> Has everything you could ever want to do to a 993 C4S and would enable you to save the headaches of doing it yourself and then killing resale. Let DJ worry about that.
E. J.
Skip, why not sell your car for the most you can get now (before the changes) and buy DJs - I here its for sale <a href="http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/~dj/" target="_blank">here</a> Has everything you could ever want to do to a 993 C4S and would enable you to save the headaches of doing it yourself and then killing resale. Let DJ worry about that.
E. J.
09-09-2002, 04:55 PM
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E.J.,
Thanks for the suggestion, but prepping the car is almost as much fun as driving it! While I can't do everything on my car, between what I've learned at the shop and from the DIY page, I know more than I ever thought I would. His car does give me some ideas, though.
The funny thing is that it's not the car that's going to cost me the most in the long run, it's the move to a house with big garage, fixing the garage up, buying the lift, etc. Maybe I'm nuts, but I'm having fun, and that's what counts the most to me.
Cheers!
Thanks for the suggestion, but prepping the car is almost as much fun as driving it! While I can't do everything on my car, between what I've learned at the shop and from the DIY page, I know more than I ever thought I would. His car does give me some ideas, though.
The funny thing is that it's not the car that's going to cost me the most in the long run, it's the move to a house with big garage, fixing the garage up, buying the lift, etc.
Maybe I'm nuts, but I'm having fun, and that's what counts the most to me.Cheers!
09-09-2002, 05:05 PM
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My advice would be.. Find yourself a prepared car.. It will probably be cheaper in the long run and you will not have to beat your head sorting it out... More time on the track... more fun.
09-09-2002, 05:20 PM
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Building a car can be fun, but it is expensive. I was lucky that I did most of the grunt work on my car and my mechanic sold me the parts at cost.
It is also frustrating as hell. I learned how to install ill fitting aftermarket body panels, saw away things that are in the way, etc.
Did I say it was expensive?
I did learn a lot about setting these cars up and some basic mechanical knowledge. I paid for that with skinned knuckles.
It is also frustrating as hell. I learned how to install ill fitting aftermarket body panels, saw away things that are in the way, etc.
Did I say it was expensive?
I did learn a lot about setting these cars up and some basic mechanical knowledge. I paid for that with skinned knuckles.
09-09-2002, 05:30 PM
#26
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[quote]Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>Building a car can be fun, but it is expensive. I was lucky that I did most of the grunt work on my car and my mechanic sold me the parts at cost.
It is also frustrating as hell. I learned how to install ill fitting aftermarket body panels, saw away things that are in the way, etc.
Did I say it was expensive?
I did learn a lot about setting these cars up and some basic mechanical knowledge. I paid for that with skinned knuckles.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Greg,
What would you say about costs, will this kind of hobby be expensive or is it cheap?
<strong>Building a car can be fun, but it is expensive. I was lucky that I did most of the grunt work on my car and my mechanic sold me the parts at cost.
It is also frustrating as hell. I learned how to install ill fitting aftermarket body panels, saw away things that are in the way, etc.
Did I say it was expensive?
I did learn a lot about setting these cars up and some basic mechanical knowledge. I paid for that with skinned knuckles.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Greg,
What would you say about costs, will this kind of hobby be expensive or is it cheap?
09-09-2002, 05:59 PM
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[quote] Thank you Mark, for explaining it in a way I never could (and I am sure neither could the Fish). It is amazing when a car is faster in the corners but slower on the straights. People don't realize that they spend a lot of time at the track either turning or transitioning to turn - probably more than going straight. <hr></blockquote>
EJ I would agree partially to the above statement. I remember when I had my 968 pretty much I was faster on the twisty bits and corners than anyone in my group and always I would bite the dust on the straights. I did not mind that at all. The thrill or reeling in someone in front of you ( especially "faster" cars) is amazing and probably the best part of why I run on the track. However there was this 951 that I was chasing hard one time. I was faster than him in the corners as I would come very close by mid corner. On the short straights and out of the corners he would have more HP and pull away, I would carry more speed into the corner. It was very frustrating watching him go and not being able to match his rate of acceleration. This chase happened for about 5 laps till we hit traffic but still I do not think I would be able to stay infront of him even if he let me pass.
I think the quest for being faster and faster is a drug and not many people will be satisfied with just a car that handles great in the corners. There will always be the desire to improve acceleration, cornering, final speed etc.
Now where do you stop? I guess where our pockets do!
We have chosen a very expensive hobby , but then again life is short and you do not get anything with you when the time comes to move on...
Having said that...now this Radical car..hmmmm
Should I go like Kim LALALALALALALALALALA <img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" /> ????
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
EJ I would agree partially to the above statement. I remember when I had my 968 pretty much I was faster on the twisty bits and corners than anyone in my group and always I would bite the dust on the straights. I did not mind that at all. The thrill or reeling in someone in front of you ( especially "faster" cars) is amazing and probably the best part of why I run on the track. However there was this 951 that I was chasing hard one time. I was faster than him in the corners as I would come very close by mid corner. On the short straights and out of the corners he would have more HP and pull away, I would carry more speed into the corner. It was very frustrating watching him go and not being able to match his rate of acceleration. This chase happened for about 5 laps till we hit traffic but still I do not think I would be able to stay infront of him even if he let me pass.
I think the quest for being faster and faster is a drug and not many people will be satisfied with just a car that handles great in the corners. There will always be the desire to improve acceleration, cornering, final speed etc.
Now where do you stop? I guess where our pockets do!
We have chosen a very expensive hobby , but then again life is short and you do not get anything with you when the time comes to move on...
Having said that...now this Radical car..hmmmm
Should I go like Kim LALALALALALALALALALA <img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" /> ????
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
09-09-2002, 06:07 PM
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Danny,
Do yourself a favor, rent a SRF for a weekend and get your SCCA license at the same time. You will end up in a race with about 60 other SRF on the track at once. I guarantee there will be no wanting of top end speed when the weekend's over.
I understand your point, but the challenge for me is to be fast in the corners, not on the straights. But you are right than there is never enough power. But with the SRFs with so many of them on the track at once you dont notice. Trust me.
E. J.
Do yourself a favor, rent a SRF for a weekend and get your SCCA license at the same time. You will end up in a race with about 60 other SRF on the track at once. I guarantee there will be no wanting of top end speed when the weekend's over.
I understand your point, but the challenge for me is to be fast in the corners, not on the straights. But you are right than there is never enough power. But with the SRFs with so many of them on the track at once you dont notice. Trust me.
E. J.
09-09-2002, 06:13 PM
#29
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EJ, RENT the SFR????????
Leads PLEASE!!!!
That sounds like an EXCELLENT idea!!!
Yeah I agree with you that running in a field of the same cars would be a different ball game!
The need for more power, cornering etc would be useless and there you can really see what is your worth...
wow... that's a great idea!
Thanks EJ. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Leads PLEASE!!!!
That sounds like an EXCELLENT idea!!!
Yeah I agree with you that running in a field of the same cars would be a different ball game!
The need for more power, cornering etc would be useless and there you can really see what is your worth...
wow... that's a great idea!
Thanks EJ. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
09-09-2002, 06:26 PM
#30
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Danny, check out:
<a href="http://www.scca-enterprises.com/" target="_blank">Spec Racer Ford</a>
You will find info. Click the link for Customer Service Reps and find one in your area for rentals. Also, you can get info at specracer.com
Kim,
Borrow my Radical huh? That is not a car I would suggest as the first race car - it is way fast. Tell you what - read DJ's summary on the TQ board. After I give you a ride, let me know how you feel about it as a first race car.
<a href="http://www.scca-enterprises.com/" target="_blank">Spec Racer Ford</a>
You will find info. Click the link for Customer Service Reps and find one in your area for rentals. Also, you can get info at specracer.com
Kim,
Borrow my Radical huh? That is not a car I would suggest as the first race car - it is way fast. Tell you what - read DJ's summary on the TQ board. After I give you a ride, let me know how you feel about it as a first race car.