os993

Greetings Kids!

As promised, he's my report on three upgrades I tried on the track yesterday (Thunderhill - Willows, Ca):
1. Kuhmo Victoracer tires (mounted on factory 17". 225/45/17F, 255/40/17R) Previous tires used were Pirelli P-zero's and SO-2's.)
2. Pagid Orange pads (vs. factory OEM's)
3. Hot Lap Timer installed.

BTY, the group I ran with, Donutz Racing, allowed me to clock over 200miles of track time!! Only two run groups, 30min sessions each - you do the math. Suffice it to say, at 4:00pm, most people were exhausted and were packing it up. I ran my last two sessions in the afternoon with perhaps 5-7 other cars! Talk about owning the track!!

Verdict: Holy Manure! Tires definitely made the biggest difference! I never thought I would justify buying a second set of rims and having track-only tires, but what an improvement! Even if you look at it from a safety factor, the Kuhmo's were so nicely planted, it made driving that much more pleasant. On Pirelli's and SO-2's, I never felt in total control. I was always slipping, and just learned how to control the slides - made me nervous on the high speed turns. BTY, with some patient shopping (and great folks I dealt with), I found some factory cup rims for $400 and 80% used heat cycled Kuhmos for $200 - definitely worth the investment! Also, mounted the Kuhmos at home, drove comfortably to the track and back - very nice tire and many other VictoRacers also seen on the track (Audi S4's for example..). Bottom line, if you plan on doing a few DE's a year and really want to have fun and explore the real potential of our beautiful rear-engine cars, I highly recommend this upgrade. If the ladies of the house question it, tell them it's a safety thing, and you're really not lying about this!!

Pagid orange pads and ATE super blue: WOW! BTY, running on "standard" porsche brakes. Really made braking more secure and strong - wow, wow, wow! No fade, no easing off throttle before turn to "spare the brakes". I went hard on the brakes all day, and brakes never faded or gave me concerns. Used oranges front and rear. Solid stuff.

Hot lap timer: Great to see how you're improving (or not improving) each lap. After I finished, I viewed all times and will study them more. Not sure what kind of times are good at Thunderhill, but by the afternoon, I was turning 2'16" laps, with consistent laps between that time and 2'20". Another very cool addition.

So, in summary, I view all three of these upgrades as VERY beneficial for me to have more fun on the track as well as improving my safety. The tire were, well, simply positively incredible - really raises the level of fun and excitement. Same with the pads.

Anir

Thanks, Oleg, for the review!

I spent six track days last year on S-02s, so I'm really looking forward to trying out the P-Zeros C's this summer, particularly after reading your post. Initially, I also felt a little guilty about dropping all that money on the second set of wheels (Fikses) just for track use.

My OEM pads seemed fine last year, but I might also try the Pagid Orange.

Have fun this summer!

Martin S.

Two weeks ago I spent 2 days at California Speedway in Fontana...not too many 30 minute sessions but we had a few. I was advised against Pagid Orange as potential rotor eaters. My shop recommended Minitex. Since I was out of pads, I went with their recommendation. I was a little "gun shy" as it was discovered I needed front rotors @$250 each as well as resurfacing the rear rotors. With the rotors and pads, my Mastercard experiences a $1,100 charge...wait til this bill comes in, ouch!

I also used Super Blue fluid. With the congiguration of the track, part infield and part oval, high banks and all, there were two (2) 130 mph breaking areas, one down to a second gear turn into the infield. My car does have the Big Reds...nevertheless, I experienced 0 fade all weekend.

I also used the 17" Kumho VictoRacers...flawless, wonderful tires.

In conclusion, these 993 cars, with some minor preparation for the track (pads, tires and wheels and rotors within factory spec) are incredible cars...but of course you all knew that. For those that have not been to the track with you 993 cars, you should give it a try...much more fun than on-ramp banzai runs!

Robert Henriksen

[quote]Originally posted by Martin Schacht:
<strong>I was a little "gun shy" as it was discovered I needed front rotors @$250 each as well as resurfacing the rear rotors. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Martin, do you have big reds? I pay about $130 apiece for front rotors, and I thought that was a lot!

Robert Henriksen

Martin, do you have big reds? I pay about $130 apiece for front rotors, and I thought that was a lot!

Oh, and who told you to turn those rotors?! CW says (and I'm pretty sure I've read this in the shop manual as well) -- never turn these rotors <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

Robert Linton

Have you tried the Pagid RS-19?

Greg Fishman

Robert,
Is that the Black race pad?
Greg

Robert Linton

No, Black is the RS-14. The RS-19 is yellow -- but do not confuse it with the older and now discontinued RS-9 which was also yellow and which I have seen certain firms attempting to sell as the RS-19.

Greg Fishman

Robert,
Is that the pad that the 996 Cup car comes with? If so I talked to a friend with a cup car that says they are great pads but he didn't think they came in any other sizes. That was a year ago so maybe that has changed. Do you know a vendor that has these?
Thanks
Greg

Robert Linton

Greg:

I do not believe that the Cup Cars are equipped with RS-19 (I will check and report back). On the other hand, I suspect that if you look at races such as Daytona and LeMans you will see RS-19. As to sizes, although RS-19 is relatively new, while certain distributors may not stock it, they can obtain it to fit Type 993 and Type 964 (albeit possibly not in extreme widths such as 24 mm, 26 mm or 27 mm which, of course, should not generally be required for club racing).

As to primary Pagid distributors in the U.S., to none of which do I have any connection, two of them are Rennlist Sponsors:

Paragon Products, Inc.
5602 Old Brownville Road
Corpus Christi, Texas 78417
Tel 361-289-8834/Fax 361-289-5682

Kevin Buckler
The Racers Group
29181 Arnold Drive
Sonoma, California 95476
Tel 707-935-3999/Fax 707-935-5889

The third is also quite knowledgeable as I am under the impression he does quite a bit of club racing:

John Ruther
Northstar Motorsports
28144 West Industrial Avenue
Barrington, Illinois 60010
Tel 847-304-5515/Fax 847-304-5615

The fourth, however, Charles Spira, through not having a fancy web site such as all of the foregoing, serves as a track representative/engineer for Pagid and appears to have a good technical and practical knowledge of brakes and brake pads:

Charles Spira
Wrightwood Racing
1401 Vanguard Drive
Oxnard, California 93033
Tel 805-385-7191/Fax 805-385-7194

Finally, as to prices, as with knowledge transfer, there is a bit of variability and, as such, it might be worth shopping around. Also, there are bedding instructions and rotors suggestions for Pagid racing pads and I would suggest obtaining them from parties more appropriate than I.

Lastly, although I will not get into a debate as to which are the best pads for racing and why (i.e., Ferodo, Hawk, Pagid, Performance Friction, Porterfield, etc.), let me simply state that if it was my car, if it was a 911 type car, and cost was not a parameter, I would use Pagid and, in general, I would use the RS-19.

Bob

P.S. The newest Cup Cars have a 6 piston front caliper (yellow in color) which uses the same size pads (but not pad material) as are used on the Type 996 GT2 street car. And, by the way, these calipers are selling (although availability is limited at this point) for approximately $300 per unit (although I have seen vendors offering kits for in excess of $8000 and that use the calipers [the rear calipers are 4 piston] and rotors of the new Cups Cars which, as parts, sell for a total of approximately $2400, i.e., those are mighty expensive adaptor plates!).

Bill Gregory

[quote]<strong>Finally, as to prices, as with knowledge transfer, there is a bit of variability and, as such, it might be worth shopping around. </strong><hr></blockquote>

You'll find there is a "floor" on Pagid prices, with a few vendors being higher. Pagid tightly controls it's selling prices. I know two vendors that were told by their Pagid rep if they discounted the prices that Pagid would stop selling to them. I buy mine from Paragon Products, as they include a can of Super Blue with each axle set.

993Widebody

Oleg,

I was told by my club that having any type of timing equipment in the car is a sure fire way to void any insurance coverage should you have any mishaps. I guess you aren't concerned with this?

Glad to hear you had a great time, amazing that you can drive these cars so hard (200 miles of track time) and then drive home without any worry.

Robert Linton

Bill:

Re prices, it is not the floor of which I worry, it is the lack of a ceiling (a notable example is the vendor, not a Rennlist Sponsor, noted above which takes less than $2400 [at retail] of Porsche brake components, adds a couple of hundred dollars of home made adaptors and middle of the road [i.e., not, e.g., Aereoquip aerospace] metal brake hoses and charges $8100 to any unsuspecting customer who walks in the door). Additionally, as proper brake pad choice, bedding and usage are vital and as brakes are so linked to safety, the issue of patient and informed technical help is, I would think, of great import to the club racer (indeed, even with the hundreds of millions spent for technology and crew by the grid leaders in F1, AP and Brembo, the leaders in F1 braking [AP, which is now owned by Brembo, and Brembo split the F1 field quite evenly as to aluminum lithium calipers and AP, I believe, supplies clutches to all of the teams], AP and Brembo have engineers at each race). Finally, as to fluid, Super Blue is good "stuff", AP and Castrol SRF, albeit more expensive, are better and, recently, I spoke with a firm called Prospeed Motorsports

1735 Norfolk Avenue
Saint Paul, Minnesota 55116-3025
Tel 952-249-1169/Fax 651-699-3098


that is making claims about its new GS610 brake fluid that, if true, could give it a very interesting market position. In any event, I have ordered a few cans and will send them to people who have proper testing facilities.

Bob

P.S. I have no affiliation with AP, Brembo, Castrol or Prospeed.

Greg Fishman

Bob,
I had some issues with the AP fluid when I used it on my car, I had lots of fade unless I bleed the brakes every day at an event or race. Went to ATE and no more problems until I had to replace my master cylinder. Bleed the brakes once a weekend.

Here is some info on the Pagid RS-19

"RS 19 – YELLOW

Best compound for endurance racing on the basis of the RS 14. A slight reduction of the friction value improves the modulation. Nevertheless, the friction value is enough for cars without power-assisted brake system and ensures comfortable low effort on the brake pedal. Constant temperatures up to 600°C (1.100°F) are possible. The combination of friction value, fading stability and low wear rates on pads and discs realized with this pad compound is unmatched up to now. Application: All endurance racing cars, from group N (Motorola Cup) up to sport cars."

Robert Linton

Which AP fluid did you use -- AP 600 or AP 551?