ABS System is another 'early 95' problem?
07-17-2002, 11:39 AM
#16
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[quote]Originally posted by HueyN:
<strong>When you all say early '95 made cars, what exactly do you mean? If the sticker on the door panel says 2/95, is that considered an early buily '95 built car or later?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a "late build" in my books. The first 993s were built starting in January of 1994. The "R" series 993s (10th digit of the serial number being R) would designate a car built between January and July of 1994. Approximately 15,000 993 were built during this period with a majority of them (12,000+) being ROW cars. The 2600 or so cars built for the North American market towards the end of this run were marketed as 1995 model cars. The "S" series was the second run of 1995 model year 993s and were built between August of 1994 and July of 1995. About 18,000 cars were built in this run with approximately 8000 of them going to North America (55% Coupe/45% Cab).
<strong>When you all say early '95 made cars, what exactly do you mean? If the sticker on the door panel says 2/95, is that considered an early buily '95 built car or later?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a "late build" in my books. The first 993s were built starting in January of 1994. The "R" series 993s (10th digit of the serial number being R) would designate a car built between January and July of 1994. Approximately 15,000 993 were built during this period with a majority of them (12,000+) being ROW cars. The 2600 or so cars built for the North American market towards the end of this run were marketed as 1995 model cars. The "S" series was the second run of 1995 model year 993s and were built between August of 1994 and July of 1995. About 18,000 cars were built in this run with approximately 8000 of them going to North America (55% Coupe/45% Cab).
07-17-2002, 12:02 PM
#17
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[quote]Originally posted by jes999:
<strong>
That's a "late build" in my books. The first 993s were built starting in January of 1994. The "R" series 993s (10th digit of the serial number being R) would designate a car built between January and July of 1994. Approximately 15,000 993 were built during this period with a majority of them (12,000+) being ROW cars. The 2600 or so cars built for the North American market towards the end of this run were marketed as 1995 model cars. The "S" series was the second run of 1995 model year 993s and were built between August of 1994 and July of 1995. About 18,000 cars were built in this run with approximately 8000 of them going to North America (55% Coupe/45% Cab).</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't understand any of your figures.
Are you saying that there were 15000 993s built between Jan and July 1994 with only 2600 coming to the US?
Are you saying the S series cars were made for 95 MY?
Are you saying that another 18000 993s were built in the second half of the MY 1995 run? This would make the total number of 33,000 1995 993s produced.
Now I'm no expert but those numbers all sound high to me and I know there are no 1995 S models.
E. J.
<strong>
That's a "late build" in my books. The first 993s were built starting in January of 1994. The "R" series 993s (10th digit of the serial number being R) would designate a car built between January and July of 1994. Approximately 15,000 993 were built during this period with a majority of them (12,000+) being ROW cars. The 2600 or so cars built for the North American market towards the end of this run were marketed as 1995 model cars. The "S" series was the second run of 1995 model year 993s and were built between August of 1994 and July of 1995. About 18,000 cars were built in this run with approximately 8000 of them going to North America (55% Coupe/45% Cab).</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't understand any of your figures.
Are you saying that there were 15000 993s built between Jan and July 1994 with only 2600 coming to the US?
Are you saying the S series cars were made for 95 MY?
Are you saying that another 18000 993s were built in the second half of the MY 1995 run? This would make the total number of 33,000 1995 993s produced.
Now I'm no expert but those numbers all sound high to me and I know there are no 1995 S models.
E. J.
07-17-2002, 12:29 PM
#18
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EJ:
All of the figures I quoted were from the "Porsche 911 Red Book 1965-1999".
Are you saying that there were 15000 993s built between Jan and July 1994 with only 2600 coming to the US?
Yes.
ROW: 6412 Coupes, 5850 Cabs, 100 Cup
US/Canada: 1453 Coupes, 1224 Cabs
Are you saying the S series cars were made for 95 MY?
"S" series refers to the 10th digit in the serial number, and has nothing to do with C4S, Carrera S, Turbo S, etc. More appropriately, it is referred to as the "R Program, S Program, etc.". My mistake.
Are you saying that another 18000 993s were built in the second half of the MY 1995 run? This would make the total number of 33,000 1995 993s produced.
Yes.
Between July of 94 and August of 95, the following were produced:
ROW: 7018 Coupes, 2878 Cabs, 274 RS, 110 Cup, 78 Turbo
US/Canada: 4139 Coupes, 3718 Cabs
To put this in perspective, here are the US/Canada numbers by MODEL YEAR:
1995 5592 Coupes, 4942 Cabs "R & S Programs"
1996 3671 Coupes, 2152 Cabs, 462 Targa, 1357 Turbo "T Program"
1997 4972 Coupes, 2157 Cabs, 567 Targa, 1046 Turbo "V Program"
1998 1292 Coupes, 1201 Cabs, 122 Targa "W Program"
Now I'm no expert but those numbers all sound high to me and I know there are no 1995 S models.
I'm no expert either and the "Red Book" has been previously found to have some errors, but I believe that these figures are pretty accurate. I also believe that the ROW cars produced for the "R Program" (1 - 7/94) were sold as 1994 model year cars.
See comment above about "S" Program/Series vs. "S" model designation.
<img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" />
All of the figures I quoted were from the "Porsche 911 Red Book 1965-1999".
Are you saying that there were 15000 993s built between Jan and July 1994 with only 2600 coming to the US?
Yes.
ROW: 6412 Coupes, 5850 Cabs, 100 Cup
US/Canada: 1453 Coupes, 1224 Cabs
Are you saying the S series cars were made for 95 MY?
"S" series refers to the 10th digit in the serial number, and has nothing to do with C4S, Carrera S, Turbo S, etc. More appropriately, it is referred to as the "R Program, S Program, etc.". My mistake.
Are you saying that another 18000 993s were built in the second half of the MY 1995 run? This would make the total number of 33,000 1995 993s produced.
Yes.
Between July of 94 and August of 95, the following were produced:
ROW: 7018 Coupes, 2878 Cabs, 274 RS, 110 Cup, 78 Turbo
US/Canada: 4139 Coupes, 3718 Cabs
To put this in perspective, here are the US/Canada numbers by MODEL YEAR:
1995 5592 Coupes, 4942 Cabs "R & S Programs"
1996 3671 Coupes, 2152 Cabs, 462 Targa, 1357 Turbo "T Program"
1997 4972 Coupes, 2157 Cabs, 567 Targa, 1046 Turbo "V Program"
1998 1292 Coupes, 1201 Cabs, 122 Targa "W Program"
Now I'm no expert but those numbers all sound high to me and I know there are no 1995 S models.
I'm no expert either and the "Red Book" has been previously found to have some errors, but I believe that these figures are pretty accurate. I also believe that the ROW cars produced for the "R Program" (1 - 7/94) were sold as 1994 model year cars.
See comment above about "S" Program/Series vs. "S" model designation.
<img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" />
07-17-2002, 01:09 PM
#19
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Jes and EJ,
Thanks for the response.
I have just looked at a 02/95 993 that's for sale. It had the basket handle third brake light. As I was told from some members of this board, there are later '95 built cars that were made with the third brake light resembling the '96's where it's located at the top of the rear windshield. How far into '95 were the cars made with basket handles and do you guys know when it got changed to the other type?
Also EJ, regarding the wiring harness issue on '95 cars, as far as you know, what month/95 models are more likely to not have the wiring harness issue?
Thanks in advance!
-Huey
Thanks for the response.
I have just looked at a 02/95 993 that's for sale. It had the basket handle third brake light. As I was told from some members of this board, there are later '95 built cars that were made with the third brake light resembling the '96's where it's located at the top of the rear windshield. How far into '95 were the cars made with basket handles and do you guys know when it got changed to the other type?
Also EJ, regarding the wiring harness issue on '95 cars, as far as you know, what month/95 models are more likely to not have the wiring harness issue?
Thanks in advance!
-Huey
07-17-2002, 02:49 PM
#20
I don’t get this first and second run business. Check Robin’s VIN decoding site here:
<a href="http://p-car.com/vin.html" target="_blank">http://p-car.com/vin.html</a>
The first S in the VIN is a code for the model year. R means ’94, S means ’95 and T means ’96, and so on. There is no code for a “first run” or “second run”. (The second S is for the plant, which is Stuttgart for all of us.) Also note that this “S” has nothing to do with the S in Carrera S, Carrera 4S, Turbo S, etc.
My VIN has “SS” in it, and I’m decidedly an early ’95. My build date is March ’94 and my VIN serial number is 0838. According to the logic above, this would be the “first run” and it should not have an “R” not an “S.” However, if it had an R, it would be a ’94 model year.
Legally, a “model year” can have only one January. The logic above contradicts this.
Back to the original question about the TSB. Andial should know that a build date of 10/94 should be OK. Larry, you might want to ask Andial why they think it applies to you. The TSB mentions that the “after the present stock is used up.” I guess whether or not a car got the older units depends on when they used them up, not on the build date of the car, and we have no information about this. Since they continued to use the older version, this tells me that this wasn’t a recall of defective units, just a “revision.” This could mean anything, including a change in supplier.
<a href="http://p-car.com/vin.html" target="_blank">http://p-car.com/vin.html</a>
The first S in the VIN is a code for the model year. R means ’94, S means ’95 and T means ’96, and so on. There is no code for a “first run” or “second run”. (The second S is for the plant, which is Stuttgart for all of us.) Also note that this “S” has nothing to do with the S in Carrera S, Carrera 4S, Turbo S, etc.
My VIN has “SS” in it, and I’m decidedly an early ’95. My build date is March ’94 and my VIN serial number is 0838. According to the logic above, this would be the “first run” and it should not have an “R” not an “S.” However, if it had an R, it would be a ’94 model year.
Legally, a “model year” can have only one January. The logic above contradicts this.
Back to the original question about the TSB. Andial should know that a build date of 10/94 should be OK. Larry, you might want to ask Andial why they think it applies to you. The TSB mentions that the “after the present stock is used up.” I guess whether or not a car got the older units depends on when they used them up, not on the build date of the car, and we have no information about this. Since they continued to use the older version, this tells me that this wasn’t a recall of defective units, just a “revision.” This could mean anything, including a change in supplier.
07-17-2002, 03:25 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by tom_993:
<strong>My VIN has “SS” in it, and I’m decidedly an early ’95. My build date is March ’94 and my VIN serial number is 0838. According to the logic above, this would be the “first run” and it should not have an “R” not an “S.” However, if it had an R, it would be a ’94 model year.
Legally, a “model year” can have only one January. The logic above contradicts this.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe this is another anomoly in the "Little Red Book" information. We do know that the 993 was built as a 1994 model for ROW. Maybe Porsche began using the "SS" serial #s earlier than August 1994 production for cars bound for the US/Canada so they would offically qualify as 1995 models. As far as your comment that "Legally, a model year can have only one January" , that may be true, but we know that 1995 US 993s were manufactured from at least March of '94 (your car) thru the following July so there are 2 Marchs, Aprils, Mays, Junes & Julys!
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>My VIN has “SS” in it, and I’m decidedly an early ’95. My build date is March ’94 and my VIN serial number is 0838. According to the logic above, this would be the “first run” and it should not have an “R” not an “S.” However, if it had an R, it would be a ’94 model year.
Legally, a “model year” can have only one January. The logic above contradicts this.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe this is another anomoly in the "Little Red Book" information. We do know that the 993 was built as a 1994 model for ROW. Maybe Porsche began using the "SS" serial #s earlier than August 1994 production for cars bound for the US/Canada so they would offically qualify as 1995 models. As far as your comment that "Legally, a model year can have only one January" , that may be true, but we know that 1995 US 993s were manufactured from at least March of '94 (your car) thru the following July so there are 2 Marchs, Aprils, Mays, Junes & Julys!
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
07-17-2002, 03:34 PM
#22
[quote]Originally posted by jes999:
<strong>
As far as your comment that "Legally, a model year can have only one January" , that may be true, but we know that 1995 US 993s were manufactured from at least March of '94 (your car) thru the following July so there are 2 Marchs, Aprils, Mays, Junes & Julys!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
By the legal definition, a "model year" can be up to 23 months long.
<strong>
As far as your comment that "Legally, a model year can have only one January" , that may be true, but we know that 1995 US 993s were manufactured from at least March of '94 (your car) thru the following July so there are 2 Marchs, Aprils, Mays, Junes & Julys!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
By the legal definition, a "model year" can be up to 23 months long.
07-17-2002, 05:19 PM
#23
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[quote](from tom_993: Back to the original question about the TSB. Andial should know that a build date of 10/94 should be
OK. Larry, you might want to ask Andial why they think it applies to you.
<hr></blockquote>
Good point, I will follow up.
[quote]
The TSB mentions that the
“after the present stock is used up.” I guess whether or not a car got the older units depends on
when they used them up, not on the build date of the car, and we have no information about this.
<hr></blockquote>
That is mentioned in the 'Repair Information' section. But the 'Concern' section says "As of March 1994, revised hydraulic units and control units are being installed in production for the ABS/ABD systems."
Kind of ambiguous. Finding out why Andial thought my car is involved should hopefully add some clarity. The TSB mentions you can only tell by the serial numbers, perhaps those are given on one of the pages of the TSB that I don't have.
[quote]
Since they continued to use the older version, this tells me that this wasn’t a recall of defective units,
just a “revision.” This could mean anything, including a change in supplier.
<hr></blockquote>
Right. Another question for Andial.
-Larry
OK. Larry, you might want to ask Andial why they think it applies to you.
<hr></blockquote>
Good point, I will follow up.
[quote]
The TSB mentions that the
“after the present stock is used up.” I guess whether or not a car got the older units depends on
when they used them up, not on the build date of the car, and we have no information about this.
<hr></blockquote>
That is mentioned in the 'Repair Information' section. But the 'Concern' section says "As of March 1994, revised hydraulic units and control units are being installed in production for the ABS/ABD systems."
Kind of ambiguous. Finding out why Andial thought my car is involved should hopefully add some clarity. The TSB mentions you can only tell by the serial numbers, perhaps those are given on one of the pages of the TSB that I don't have.
[quote]
Since they continued to use the older version, this tells me that this wasn’t a recall of defective units,
just a “revision.” This could mean anything, including a change in supplier.
<hr></blockquote>
Right. Another question for Andial.
-Larry
07-17-2002, 06:56 PM
#24
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Follow up phone call with Andial:
The serial numbers were checked and determined that I have the older Hydraulic Unit. They have seen this problem with several of these older units, have recently replaced two of them. It was also mentioned that many units were replaced by Porsche in the past (fuzzy statement). It feels as though the brakes need to be bled, but it's the ABS system bypassing fluid when the brakes are pressed.
This means that the older units were being installed during the build date of my car 10/94 - using up the existing stock for production units as the TSB sort of suggests, I assume.
I'm going to call Porsche North America now...
-Larry
The serial numbers were checked and determined that I have the older Hydraulic Unit. They have seen this problem with several of these older units, have recently replaced two of them. It was also mentioned that many units were replaced by Porsche in the past (fuzzy statement). It feels as though the brakes need to be bled, but it's the ABS system bypassing fluid when the brakes are pressed.
This means that the older units were being installed during the build date of my car 10/94 - using up the existing stock for production units as the TSB sort of suggests, I assume.
I'm going to call Porsche North America now...
-Larry
07-17-2002, 11:24 PM
#25
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Larry,
The only thing they know and can tell you is if there was a recall on the cars for that particular problem. I think whoever answers the phone is just a receptionist who can punch in some numbers on the computer to access some of the general data. For anything else, you will be referred to your local P service manager. If you bought your car used and not from a P dealer,... be prepared.
When they say "There is no old Porsche, just new owner" (or something like that)they really meant it
The only thing they know and can tell you is if there was a recall on the cars for that particular problem. I think whoever answers the phone is just a receptionist who can punch in some numbers on the computer to access some of the general data. For anything else, you will be referred to your local P service manager. If you bought your car used and not from a P dealer,... be prepared.
When they say "There is no old Porsche, just new owner" (or something like that)they really meant it
07-18-2002, 12:31 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
HueyN,
My '95 was built in May '95, and it has the '96-on 3rd brake light (no basket handle). I've seen one March '95 car with the basket handle and one March '95 car without, and at least one April '95 car without the basket handle. So, sometime 'round March/April seems to be when the change was made.
My '95 was built in May '95, and it has the '96-on 3rd brake light (no basket handle). I've seen one March '95 car with the basket handle and one March '95 car without, and at least one April '95 car without the basket handle. So, sometime 'round March/April seems to be when the change was made.
07-19-2002, 10:43 PM
#28
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Just to add to the general confusion with the S and R's mine is a 3/94 built with SS vin...
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
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07-22-2002, 01:46 PM
#30
[quote]Originally posted by DJF1:
<strong>Just to add to the general confusion with the S and R's mine is a 3/94 built with SS vin...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Danny,
Not confusing at all. Mine is also a 3/94 build with an “SS” VIN (see my post above). Our cars are brothers!
Tito
Both Danny and I (3/94 build, “SS” VIN) have USA cars, and yours is a ROW car. I suppose that explains your 2/94 build with an “RS” VIN. You probably have one of the last ‘94’s, while Danny and I have very early ‘95’s.
Tom
'95 993
<strong>Just to add to the general confusion with the S and R's mine is a 3/94 built with SS vin...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Danny,
Not confusing at all. Mine is also a 3/94 build with an “SS” VIN (see my post above). Our cars are brothers!
Tito
Both Danny and I (3/94 build, “SS” VIN) have USA cars, and yours is a ROW car. I suppose that explains your 2/94 build with an “RS” VIN. You probably have one of the last ‘94’s, while Danny and I have very early ‘95’s.
Tom
'95 993