DJF1

Finally the install of all the goodies including Das roll bar,schroths,carbon kit and the H&R with Euro M030 sways are in!

It took a good week but the results are way beyond my expectations! I only drove about 80 miles on the back roads today from Mike's place to my house but these 80 miles were very revealing.

1. The setup is between RS and Euro M030 in height about an inch and a quarter lower.

2. Negative camber of 1.5 degrees front and rear.

The first impression I got was that the car is more stout but not harsh at all. I dare to say that it is actually handling the potholes much better than stock. The car feels like it is one piece a very solid feeling.
FM 1488 in Texas has some nice twistes which are marked "40 mph". Nice and tight with brand new asphalt, these curves were perfect to test cornering. I can report that no more wobly feeling no more double set of the suspension and the turn in is sharper than before. With the normal suspension I would take these curves at 70mph and would have a lot of movement from the suspension. With the H&R the car feels extremely solid, very little roll and the speed was up to 80 without a sweat!

All and all a very worthwhile upgrade, i have not driven a PSS-9 car but H&R is perfect in every way at least on the street. Tomorrow I will test it on the track and I will report the impressions which I believe will be along the same lines...

For those who have reported like me previously wobly feelings, double sets, bouncing etc an upgrade to the suspension is definately the answer...

By the way the car looks incredible lowered. Just perfect!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Phil

congrats Danny, I hope you can post a few pictures before, and after..

Terry Adams

Nice write up, and I hope you got the Gert FPB with all that lowering.

The handling difference you describe sounds identical to mine. I feel 80% of the difference is from the RoW M030, not the type of shocks. It would be great to organize a local "drive-off" of different handling packages.

rockdoc

DJF1 - thanks for sharing your impressions.
Terry - a side by side comparison sounds like a great idea.
I just installed the PSS-9's with a rear RS sway bar and monoballs. Lowered to RS height, - 1.5 and corner balanced (I still couldn't get the front bar on ) I would be up for letting people give it a test ride.

I need to get down to Mountain View sometime to pay a visit to Custom. Has anyone had a dealer install the sway bars?

Flying Finn

Sounds good DJF1!

And I'm sure it looks great compared to stock "school bus" ride height too!

Do you still have original shocks or did you changed them as well?

Matt Vaughan

Great to hear you're pleased with Mike's work. He's a real gentleman that knows his stuff.

See you out at TWS tomorrow!

Anir

Danny,

Thanks for the helpful post! I believe John Huang was also very happy with the H&R coilovers.

I've spent months contemplating this upgrade, and have narrowed it down to the H&R coilovers, PSS-9s with monoballs, or the new RUF PSS-9 system ($2550 BTW, according to Asgar at Weissach, including an adjustable rear sway bar).

I can't wait to hear your track impressions from TWS (I grew up in Dallas, Austin, and Houston!). I currently have the DAS bar in the garage awaiting installation, and GT3 seats on order from Gert.

Thanks for conducting such a fine "experiment" in the name of Rennlist science!

Timothy Stewart

Rockdoc, Silverbullet - others in Bay Area -
Next AutoX is at the end of the month in
Sonoma. This would be a particularly good
venue to compare suspensions because it
is not set on a big open flat surface like
many AutoX's. The surface looks like a
four rung ladder and drives more like a road course than your everyday AutoX. Most of the
times that I have been there, the course
has included a 3rd gear section.

tim

Don't lift

I've been on the fence for a while between the ROW M030/Bilstein HD or the PSS-9. Now I'm ruling out the ROW/HD due to the limited ride height adjustment issue. By process of elimilation I'm considering between the PSS-9 or the H&R. Can anyone shed some light on to why the spring rate on the rear of the PSS-9 is that much more heavy than the H&R? Seems to me the rates on the H&R are more balanced? My information on the spring rate as follow:

PSS-9:
FRONT: 225 - 250
REAR: 400 - 685

H&R:
FRONT: 290 - 310
REAR: 350 - 370

H&R SPORTS:
FRONT: 310 - 350
REAR: 350 - 375


Also, sure would like to hear more feed back from some other H&R experiences and any other choice?


------------------
95 Adventurine 993

Matt Vaughan

I can think of one reason for the stiffer rear springs: to help eliminate the inherent 911 squat on hard acceleration. Since the engine's in the rear, these cars are prone to that. On top of that, the PSS-9 kit has the ability to further tune performance with the adjustable compression / rebound.

rockdoc

Kim - anytime you want to test it out, just email me when your going to be in the neighborhood.

Tim - thanks for the tip. Have not driven in an AutoX before. Can you tell me the details? I've got a Cabrio w/o a roll bar at the moment. Most places won't allow me to run the car without one.

DJF1

Ok guys here it is...
The H&R coilover kit (shocks and springs) with the Euro M030 sways as sold by Gert is simply FANTASTIC!!!!!

Yesterday on the track I had a blast. This was the first time I got to be so confident with the car and I was able to drive it hard at least within my present limits. I felt very comfortable so much so that by the end of the session I was up to my maximum speed, braking later and later, carrying more speed into the corners. As a result I asked for a check ride to get promoted to the advanced group as within my group I was really getting stuck in "traffic"!!! Thanks to this setup I got my "promotion" so today I will have some tough time trying to keep up with the "big boys" !!
The car with this setup felt extremely neutral with little roll and no bouncing at all. If some of you remember originally in December I had reported my problem with the wobly movement of the car, on the same track. The stock suspension used to take a double set, a lot of rolling and a lot of bouncing. Clearly with this suspension all these problems have been cured, the car is transformed and I dare to say that this is the way it should have come from the factory. Even bumps and ripples are handled much better now!
Bear in mind that I did not run R tyres, just a new set of PZero assymetrico's which I personally like very much.

I also have to thank Robert who was kind enough to take me with my car out for a spin to help break in the suspension which I'm sure he will confirm liked as well. He is a hot shoe and showed me a couple of tricks which I'm gratefull for! The only problem was adjusting my harnesses from my 1000 pound frame to his normal frame!
Sorry Robert!

Another interesting comment came from the Chief Instructor who I had for my check ride on the last session. He has just bought a used 993 with plenty of miles on the spot. He said to me that he was not happy with the car and I asked him if he was refering to the movements from the suspension on the track. He said that is exactly it and originally he though that a good set of tyres or bushings would kind of solve the problem but it did not! I told him about the suspension of course and to me it was a confirmation that the stock suspension is crap and its only place is for the garbage bin!

This setup although not adjustable on the spot it is the best money I have ever spent, it does not have any fitment problems with the stock perches and it feels perfect. In fact the way it is setup now I would not want to change anything and even if I do in the future a good mechanic or a good Dyi person can play with the corner weighting to chance the setup of the car.

I will take some pics today to post to illustrate the height difference and the way the car looks now.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

PS. Look forward to meeting you Matt today! I have garage number 51. You can take a ride in my car and compare!

Anir

Danny,

Thanks again for sharing your impressions. I'm glad it worked out so well for you both on the street and track. I have a couple of questions:

- Did you use monoballs?

- Do the H&R coilovers have any rear perch mounting / mating issues like the PSS-9 units?

milrad

I just finished my H&R coilover/Euro M030 sway bar installation yesterday. I haven't aligned and corner balanced it yet so I can't comment accurately as to the magnitude of handling improvements but the installation was easy, even by myself in my garage. There were no fitment issues of any kind. One comment however. If you plan to use OEM non-adjustable sway bars which mount above the toe link you will need to set the drop link mount quite high on the shock body to use the stock drop links. This fits fine but looks a little odd. It also will limit your ultimate lowering a bit. I have 23mm between the bottom spring perch locking collar and the drop link locking collar and this gives me a fender-lip-to-ground ride height of 25.25 inches (Yes I realize this measurement is not technically correct, but it works for a rough estimate prior to corner balancing ) If you wanted it really low, say 24 inches, you might have to consider RS sways or different drop links. And rolled fenders.

Jason

DJ

[quote]Originally posted by Don't lift:
<strong>Can anyone shed some light on to why the spring rate on the rear of the PSS-9 is that much more heavy than the H&R? Seems to me the rates on the H&R are more balanced? My information on the spring rate as follow:

PSS-9:
FRONT: 225 - 250
REAR: 400 - 685

H&R:
FRONT: 290 - 310
REAR: 350 - 370

H&R SPORTS:
FRONT: 310 - 350
REAR: 350 - 375

</strong><hr></blockquote>


The PSS-9's aren't as stiff as those numbers make them appear. The first numbers (225 & 400) are the main springs and the second numbers are the tenders, or helper springs (250 & 685). The tenders are flat wound springs that compress completely (or nearly so) under all normal conditions (when the car is standing still, or driving straight down a smooth road). They come into play when one side (or both) of the suspension becomes unloaded, as when the car leans to the left in a right-hand turn. In that right-hand turn, the weight transfers to the left, and the right side becomes (somewhat) unloaded. In this condition, the heavy tender spring helps to press the right side tire into the road. A lighter tender spring would press less hard.

It's a rather bizarre setup, and I've not seen any other system that uses tenders that are stiffer than the mains. I was absolutely convinced that it couldn't possibly work, but it does. Credit one point to Bilstein for their unconventional solution.

Other than the tenders, the spring rates are still a little more biased toward a stiffer rear (compared to the front) with the PSS-9's. The rears are 1.7 times as stiff as the fronts, whereas the H&R's are 1.2, and the H&R Sports are 1.1. As everyone who has ever driven a 993 in anger can attest, 993's tend to understeer. Stiffen the rear in relation to the front, and you'll reduce the tendancy to understeer. The PSS-9's reduce the understeering tendancy the most. That's not to say that you couldn't dial out just as much understeer with the H&R's (or the Sports), it's just that you'd be doing it with more sway bar instead of springs. Most race mechanics I've talked to adhere to the theory that you do as much as you can with springs, then use the bars to fine tune it. On top of all that, you get dampening adjustability with the PSS-9's that you don't get with either of the H&R setups.

It's personal preference, but I like the PSS-9's.