Anir

I'm looking for some advice. I will soon install two beautiful chestnut brown GT3 seats (thanks, Gert!) into my 993, which sees 95% daily driver duty and about 5% DE time (4-6 events / year).

I've currently got a new DAS bolt-in roll bar sitting in the garage. It's been powder coated in black.

Because the bar will increase the weight of my car by 50 lbs. and will effectively render the rear seats useless, I have these intermittent feelings that I should just mate my Teamtech harnesses to something like a Brey Krause harness truss instead of the actual roll bar. But, then again, I wonder if the added safety of the bar should outweigh any associated inconvenience, added weight, decreased utility, etc.

I'd love to get opinions on this.

Mark in Baltimore

Anir,

I, too, will add a DAS bar to my car for DE's (still looking for a used one) and am reluctant to add any weight to the car. The roll bar gives me an added sense of protection should something catastrophic occur while on the track or road. If you're planning on doing maybe one DE a year, then the harness bar is probably fine. Any more than that and you're rolling the dice without it. I think I've read that you've done quite a few DE's, yes?

Additionally, I would think that the added triangulation would stiffen the rear of the car, which is perhaps contradictory with a rear-engined, oversteering vehicle, but should aid in keeping the chassis nice and tight.

As you know, the bar is a pain to live with but the benefits far outweigh the liabilities.

Anir

Mark,

I've done 5 DE weekends to date, so I'm really just getting started. I am signed up for the 3-day Skippy racing school in July at VIR, and plan to increase the frequency of DE's.

The GT3 seats were born out of a desire to keep my bum better planted, and to lower my head a little (I hope!) so that my helmet is not jammed into the headliner.

At this point, I'm not entirely convinced that a roll bar that is simply held in place with a few bolts is anywhere near as structurally sound and protective as a true welded-in roll cage, but I would agree with you that it is still probably better than nothing.

I'd love to hear more opinions.

Mark in Baltimore

Anir,

The DAS boys (and others on Rennlist) seem to think the reinforced frame areas where the bolts are mounted are very structurally sound, arguably sturdier than a bar that relies on drilled holes in the thinner floor pan or fender wells. I know this has been debated on Rennlist before. I am not a mechanical engineer.

I think you're right; nothing beats a full cage for max stiffness and protection.

My dad rolled his SUV a few years ago, landed on the roof, crushed it and, in the blink of an eye and a snap of a C5 vertebra, became a complete quadriplegiac. He succumbed to his injuries fifteen months later.

I will NEVER get speed out of my system but I can take an extra measure of security by installing a roll bar.

Phil

Anir,
From what I have read, It's better to get the roll bar.

I have only done 3 de's but!!...the roll bar will be my next investment

Anir

Hey Kim,

It's not that I'm worried about the safety of the DAS bar. I'm wondering if it's really necessary. I guess my questions would be:

1. Has anyone seen a rollover at a DE in which a bolt-in bar made a difference?

2. Has anyone seen a frontal accident in which the Brey Krause truss gave out?

Thanks.

Greg Fishman

"1. Has anyone seen a rollover at a DE in which a bolt-in bar made a difference?"

About three years ago at Sebring a Club Racer rolled over in his 964C2 and it had a Das rollbar upgraded to a roll cage and it was fine structurally. While I agree that a 993 is a very structural sound car and can take more punsishment that most cars, it is still a smart thing to do considering the speeds that a Turbo is capable of. The Harness truss is a good piece but I think you should do the roll bar.

Eric in Chicago

Anir,
My vote is for the bar, who know what can happen at speed... 50lbs, big deal, we are only doing DE's besides you got a freakin' Turbo. You will blow by me at Road America this year! (but I'll make it up at Putman!)

Anir

Greg and Eric,

Thanks for the advice. I guess I know in my heart that ya'll are right. I'll be calling you, Greg, as soon as the weather permits for a GT3 seat / roll bar installation party, and, Eric, let the Road America road trips begin!!! I look forward to hooking up with you, Jeff, Mike, and Michael B again.

Mark,

Please forgive me for not addressing your father's story in my earlier post (I was pretty sleepy at 04:30 am). I'm sorry for your loss. It must have been a horrible experience for you and your family. Losing a loved one is always tragic (my mother spent the last year of her life with my wife and I dying from lung cancer), but somehow more so when it's in the prime of life due to a freak accident.

kary993

I agree with everyone about the roll bar. Plus, when I removed my stock seats and added the DAS bar my car weight was actually the same or a little lighter. Weight really is not a concern for DE'ers when it comes to safety!

chris walrod

I agree with kary993. If weight was a MAJOR concern, the DE'ers in this great group of people would have these cars stripped to the max with no interior what so ever. Yes 50 LBS is a lot of weight to add to a car, but there is a chance the net weight gain might be minimized with the addition of the new seats?

Go with the DAS bar that you already have powder coated. I think I hear it in the garage yelling "install me, install me"

Nice thing is that its a bolt in piece, nothing really permanent. I think the BK guide bar would render the rear seats useless as well.

Anir

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by chris walrod:
<strong>I think I hear it in the garage yelling "install me, install me"...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> I think I can hear it, too, although it's so bitterly cold here that only Gert's FPB is getting installed today. Thanks Kary and Chris!

E. J. - 993 Alumni

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>At this point, I'm not entirely convinced that a roll bar that is simply held in place with a few bolts is anywhere near as structurally sound and protective as a true welded-in roll cage, but I would agree with you that it is still probably better than nothing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Come on Anir. You know deep down inside that a broomstick wedged bewteen the floor and the roof is better than nothing. Is the bolt in cage as good as a welded in cage - no. Are you going to weld in a cage in your fancy turbo car so it looks like Greg's race car - no. Is the bolt in cage safer than nothing (harness truss or bar) - yes. I had actually thought you decided not to track your car anymore and buy a dedicated track car. Why not talk to Danny and Kim - they just got great deals on 993 track cars - and one of 'em is a cool color combo.

Bottom line - if your car is going on the track, you are crazy not to put in a roll bar that is sitting in your garage. I would go so far to say that I would not ride in your car without one if you were going full tilt boogie where you could hit 175 on the back straight at VIR. Better to have some safety than no safety when going that fast.

E. J.

Anir

EJ,

Thanks for the input. I do still hope to get a dedicated 993 track car, but I've put it off as I'm also considering entering a spec series like SRF after doing Skippy this summer. Also, I just bought my wife the Range Rover, so further major car purchases will have to wait a bit (or so I'm told by my fiscally conservative Jewish wife). "When EF Hutton speaks, ..."

I certainly do want you to ride in the car with me, so I'll make sure to install the bar. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

At Putnam (where I've done all 5 DE's), I have never gotten above 140 mph on the main straight, so 175 mph at VIR sounds pretty intense - actually downright scary. My Skip Barber school will be at VIR on the first weekend of August. I can't wait!

Jason C.

Anir,

I have a DAS Sport Bar and wouldn't consider going on track without it. I saw an RSA barrell roll at Blackhawk a few years ago and it had a DAS bar in it I recall. It held up and the driver was ok, but had to be cut from the car while hanging upside down in the harness. Sobering...

Glad to hear you are considering your options in SCCA. SRF has been very successful as a spec class and it a good choice. Perhaps a little short on sex appeal...but that's a differnt story.

I made the big switch from PCA DE's over to SCCA. I didn't go PCA club racing as cost was a huge barrier...converting my 993 to full on race trim-no way!.

Send me an email if you'd like to get my opinions on which SCCA class might be right for you. I've run CSR and now am in Sports 2000.

Jason