Must do upgrades
10-26-2022, 04:38 AM
#16
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
My understanding is that a thicker front sway bar will reduce oversteer during turn in. A thicker rear bar will increase grip in the front thus reducing undesteer coming out of a corner. So a thicker bar in the rear would probably help reduce understeer when on the gas coming out of the corner for a rear engine car like the 911.
A thicker front bar might make turn in more difficult but alternatively less likely to spin if there's too much trail braking.
Depending on how you drive, I'm sure changing bars will be noticeable even on the streets.
Depending on how you drive, I'm sure changing bars will be noticeable even on the streets.
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fnckr (10-26-2022)
10-27-2022, 12:59 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Here is why to do these mods:
- replace all of the original rubber in the suspension including the front control arm bushings
- pin the tie rods
(Together these eliminate the randomness of the steering inputs and the perception of “float” on the front of the car. Will make the car precise. It will give you the perception that you can put the car anywhere you want within millimeters).
- install a front strut tower brace (inexpensive and helps eliminate cowl shake)
- install RS sways (helps with poise. Improves weight transfer on/off throttle and turn in)
- lower to rest of world ride height (lowers the cars mass a few inches which improves handling and looks way better)
- replace engine mounts (the car should feel like it’s carved from a single block of iron)
- get a 993 alignment from a shop that knows these cars (Required to make it all work right. A small error in alignment really matters on these cars).
Good luck.
/
- replace all of the original rubber in the suspension including the front control arm bushings
- pin the tie rods
(Together these eliminate the randomness of the steering inputs and the perception of “float” on the front of the car. Will make the car precise. It will give you the perception that you can put the car anywhere you want within millimeters).
- install a front strut tower brace (inexpensive and helps eliminate cowl shake)
- install RS sways (helps with poise. Improves weight transfer on/off throttle and turn in)
- lower to rest of world ride height (lowers the cars mass a few inches which improves handling and looks way better)
- replace engine mounts (the car should feel like it’s carved from a single block of iron)
- get a 993 alignment from a shop that knows these cars (Required to make it all work right. A small error in alignment really matters on these cars).
Good luck.
/
10-27-2022, 01:02 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
In addition to the above suspension suggestions I would recommend a couple of upgrades from Darrin at FD Motorsports. These are very good improvements that do not break the bank.
Golden Rod ( a must )
Short shift kit. (Preference)
Sport exhaust stage 2 or 3 ( preference)
RRC
Golden Rod ( a must )
Short shift kit. (Preference)
Sport exhaust stage 2 or 3 ( preference)
RRC
10-29-2022, 12:31 PM
#19
Addicted Specialist
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I must agree with Nile in principle, as well as in many of the specifics he details.
"Improved" handling is easy to achieve in increments, but if one doesn't understand how to get there, one is simply doing what others do --or what others like to pay for-- and perhaps not getting the best felt improvement or, worse imo, overpaying for overkill on the street.
1. Tires first, yes, undoubtedly. And most do this first for all the right reasons.
2. Springs and shocks with proper height (lowering to what is sensible for your actual use) and alignment. Very easy to spend lots here, but so much is overkill for the street. Good shocks to match M030 springs are a great street setup that offers better/crisper turn in, much better controlled body motions, and certainly looks far better than stock height. FWIW, I went with Pss9 way back in the day, and love it still to this day, but that's immaterial as that was my "usage."
2b. Big deal: proper alignment. This is make or break as done poorly/haphazardly, you can get squirrily traits esp over road irregularities, garbage tire wear, or simply too much "compromise" for what is a car driven on public roads. Done well, and you get a pleasing driver that is more "sporty" and crisp; pleasing and predictable without the drama that "aggressive" settings do bring. When I stopped using my 993 as dual duty track/commuting and rendered her pure street, I changed the alignment specs and was far better off for doing so. So much so I cannot overstate the importance of a proper alignment that suits your use.
3. Sways. So very easy to go overkill here for the street. As has been said, this is a fine-tuning measure to try and balance the car under cornering. "Balance" is a tricky word as this depends so much on driver input. So while it really is safe to say the stock 993 understeers under regular street use, dialing out that understeer by bolting in "go-fast tidbits" without fully understanding what you're doing to the car's dynamics when cornering can result in rotating your little beastie pretty quickly if the driver isn't fully hip to what's going on at the limit. So yes, IMO RS bars are ridiculous for street use (yeah I said it, so what!
). Do the lion's share of suspension upgrades in steps 1-2b, then sways as the sauce. M030 bars are plenty good (f:22mm/r:20mm iirc) for street use --and track use, to be sure-- which offers more roll stiffness than the regular bars, but also proportionally more rear bar than front (I think it's 3mm delta in the regular bars vs the 2mm difference with the M030, again iirc). I had this setup for a while and it was fabulous! Moreover, it is a superb balance for a street car that still must deal with junk roads, railroad tracks, etc. Side note: I found a RoW TT rear bar which is a 21mm which was an increment "better." But again, tread carefully here as more bar isn't "better" for everyone.
All above IMO/IME and FWIW, of course. RL is a wonderful wealth of information and has lots of very knowledgeable and helpful folks who are generous with their expertise. But RL can also be a source of easy "go-tos" that get oft-repeated yet don't necessarily fit everyone. My thoughts, anywhoo
Edward
"Improved" handling is easy to achieve in increments, but if one doesn't understand how to get there, one is simply doing what others do --or what others like to pay for-- and perhaps not getting the best felt improvement or, worse imo, overpaying for overkill on the street.
1. Tires first, yes, undoubtedly. And most do this first for all the right reasons.
2. Springs and shocks with proper height (lowering to what is sensible for your actual use) and alignment. Very easy to spend lots here, but so much is overkill for the street. Good shocks to match M030 springs are a great street setup that offers better/crisper turn in, much better controlled body motions, and certainly looks far better than stock height. FWIW, I went with Pss9 way back in the day, and love it still to this day, but that's immaterial as that was my "usage."
2b. Big deal: proper alignment. This is make or break as done poorly/haphazardly, you can get squirrily traits esp over road irregularities, garbage tire wear, or simply too much "compromise" for what is a car driven on public roads. Done well, and you get a pleasing driver that is more "sporty" and crisp; pleasing and predictable without the drama that "aggressive" settings do bring. When I stopped using my 993 as dual duty track/commuting and rendered her pure street, I changed the alignment specs and was far better off for doing so. So much so I cannot overstate the importance of a proper alignment that suits your use.
3. Sways. So very easy to go overkill here for the street. As has been said, this is a fine-tuning measure to try and balance the car under cornering. "Balance" is a tricky word as this depends so much on driver input. So while it really is safe to say the stock 993 understeers under regular street use, dialing out that understeer by bolting in "go-fast tidbits" without fully understanding what you're doing to the car's dynamics when cornering can result in rotating your little beastie pretty quickly if the driver isn't fully hip to what's going on at the limit. So yes, IMO RS bars are ridiculous for street use (yeah I said it, so what!
). Do the lion's share of suspension upgrades in steps 1-2b, then sways as the sauce. M030 bars are plenty good (f:22mm/r:20mm iirc) for street use --and track use, to be sure-- which offers more roll stiffness than the regular bars, but also proportionally more rear bar than front (I think it's 3mm delta in the regular bars vs the 2mm difference with the M030, again iirc). I had this setup for a while and it was fabulous! Moreover, it is a superb balance for a street car that still must deal with junk roads, railroad tracks, etc. Side note: I found a RoW TT rear bar which is a 21mm which was an increment "better." But again, tread carefully here as more bar isn't "better" for everyone.All above IMO/IME and FWIW, of course. RL is a wonderful wealth of information and has lots of very knowledgeable and helpful folks who are generous with their expertise. But RL can also be a source of easy "go-tos" that get oft-repeated yet don't necessarily fit everyone. My thoughts, anywhoo
Edward
Last edited by Edward; 10-29-2022 at 12:33 PM.
10-30-2022, 10:42 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
I have rs bars on my car and I don’t think they are too much for the street. I appreciate the added roll stiffness compared to the m030 bars I replaced and the increased traction that resulted.
There was an increase in ride harshness but for me and my driving it was a good trade off. I can always back off on my pss10 damping to take the edge off if I want.
There was an increase in ride harshness but for me and my driving it was a good trade off. I can always back off on my pss10 damping to take the edge off if I want.