A bad day at Willow Springs - Transporting Wounded Car from LA to SF
03-18-2003, 10:38 PM
#16
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I was standing at the top of the granstand at turn one when he came by. The car was putting out a lot of smoke from the back and you could smell what I now know is burned rubber. I thought he was just really baking his brakes but in fact the tire had failed and was coming apart. He apparently did not feel anything until the car was sliding off the track. He is not a newbie - I have seen him at several DEs.
03-18-2003, 11:18 PM
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Hmmm... the nose looks good. Anyone want to drop by and unbolt the front bumper cover for a needy Rennlist fellow?
Terrible to see it though... and all because of a blown tire. I wonder if there's a story about that, like Jeff mentioned above (old tires, worn tires, etc).
Terrible to see it though... and all because of a blown tire. I wonder if there's a story about that, like Jeff mentioned above (old tires, worn tires, etc).
03-19-2003, 12:32 AM
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Bill, is the owner of the rolled car the same guy that drove a red Ferrari 348 at the last couple of DEs? I was following him at Willow last September, on the last run of the day, and thought he was driving less than carefully. He went off the tract on turn 2, then flew right back on right in front of me. I even commented to Paul and Jordan at the time about it. Of course, just my opinion.
I missed yesterday because I have some pain in my shoulder, and thought it best to sit it out.
Sorry to hear about your 930. For those who haven't seen it, it's a beautiful car, with rare dark red/burgundy interior. For those who haven't heard it, on the front straight at Buttonwillow, it sounds like a 747 taking off.
I missed yesterday because I have some pain in my shoulder, and thought it best to sit it out.
Sorry to hear about your 930. For those who haven't seen it, it's a beautiful car, with rare dark red/burgundy interior. For those who haven't heard it, on the front straight at Buttonwillow, it sounds like a 747 taking off.
03-19-2003, 01:04 AM
#19
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by LeeR:
<strong>I was following him at Willow last September, on the last run of the day, and thought he was driving less than carefully. He went off the tract on turn 2, then flew right back on right in front of me. I even commented to Paul and Jordan at the time about it. Of course, just my opinion.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Interesting observation. I've noticed a lot of people who do dumb things on the track while they are driving, for example:
a) braking in the middle of a turn
b) braking too much before the turn in point, so they have to acellerate to get to the turn in point
c) jerky application of the gas pedal
d) trying to recover from a spin
e) and the list goes on and on..
This is just my armchair analysis, but sometimes I don't think people realize that driving at high speeds is serious business. Going faster requires deliberate consistency and not some adreneline induced red haze.
What scares me the most are people who don't want to learn more and are just concerned about going fast RIGHT NOW. Like anything that's worthwhile doing, it's going to take time and practice.
Ok, enough of my soap box.
<strong>I was following him at Willow last September, on the last run of the day, and thought he was driving less than carefully. He went off the tract on turn 2, then flew right back on right in front of me. I even commented to Paul and Jordan at the time about it. Of course, just my opinion.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Interesting observation. I've noticed a lot of people who do dumb things on the track while they are driving, for example:
a) braking in the middle of a turn
b) braking too much before the turn in point, so they have to acellerate to get to the turn in point
c) jerky application of the gas pedal
d) trying to recover from a spin
e) and the list goes on and on..
This is just my armchair analysis, but sometimes I don't think people realize that driving at high speeds is serious business. Going faster requires deliberate consistency and not some adreneline induced red haze.
What scares me the most are people who don't want to learn more and are just concerned about going fast RIGHT NOW. Like anything that's worthwhile doing, it's going to take time and practice.
Ok, enough of my soap box.
03-19-2003, 01:12 AM
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Bill,
By chance, do you know what type of tires he was running, or the pressures he was using?
I saw a pristine 993TT lose a rear tire in turn 10 at Putnam. He took a pretty good glancing blow off the guardrail, but walked away.
It's reassuring to see how well our cars fare in these accidents.
By chance, do you know what type of tires he was running, or the pressures he was using?
I saw a pristine 993TT lose a rear tire in turn 10 at Putnam. He took a pretty good glancing blow off the guardrail, but walked away.
It's reassuring to see how well our cars fare in these accidents.
03-19-2003, 01:37 AM
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Hi Lee - I wondered where you were. You made the right choice to sit this one out. It is the same owner you remember, but I am told he was not driving the TT when it went off yesterday. Supposedly a fellow that works for him was driving.
It turns out my oil line is actually $20 - not $5. What a pain though. This is merely plumbing and should be easy for a novice to replace, but when a part like this goes out you are basically S.O.L.
Anir - I heard that the tires were Yokohama slicks. By all appearnaces this was not a driver error issue but an equipment failure.
It turns out my oil line is actually $20 - not $5. What a pain though. This is merely plumbing and should be easy for a novice to replace, but when a part like this goes out you are basically S.O.L.
Anir - I heard that the tires were Yokohama slicks. By all appearnaces this was not a driver error issue but an equipment failure.
03-19-2003, 01:41 AM
#22
It seemed like it might have been a combination of the 2 from what my eyewitness said. My buddy Paul is one of the instructors for Road One and his dad was behind the driver in his TT. True the tire did blow, but he tried to fight it and make the turn rather than tracking off.
I know that we all have had (or have) our brain farts...especially on a track like Willow, but Paul's Dad said the car was out of control and really pushing it all day.
I know that we all have had (or have) our brain farts...especially on a track like Willow, but Paul's Dad said the car was out of control and really pushing it all day.
03-19-2003, 12:06 PM
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The last two months I have been autocrossing my car as part of the 'baby steps' build up for eventually attending a DE. I know that I am conservative and will take my time in getting up to speed as I respect the danger these track events introduce. I am a little intimidated by the DE thing at the moment. I plan on a few more autocross' before going to a track etc. I am getting a really good feel for how my car behaves (albeit autox is really low speed)when pushed.
After reading these kind of bad news reports from the DE scene, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This wont stop me from trying one though.
After reading these kind of bad news reports from the DE scene, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This wont stop me from trying one though.
03-19-2003, 12:28 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>
I saw a pristine 993TT lose a rear tire in turn 10 at Putnam. He took a pretty good glancing blow off the guardrail, but walked away.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I think I saw that too...from the passenger seat!
The car was on its second lap and I felt something weird through the seat of my pants but I figured it was the driver pushing a little too much (he was an "A" student), unfortunately it was a flat tire.
Sounds like this guy wasn't paying attention to what his car was doing and continued to push. Word of advice, if you start to feel something weird in your car just pit and take a look, you won't lose much track time and you may save your self from a serious accident.
At a DE I had run a couple sessions and went back out and had a horrible vibration, first thought was marbles I had picked up. THen I said no way and pitted. Figured a wheel needed to be torqued or something. Well that wheel was broken in the center 3/4 of the way around. I dodged a serious bullet. I can't imagine having my tire pass me going down the straight at over 120mph..
<strong>
I saw a pristine 993TT lose a rear tire in turn 10 at Putnam. He took a pretty good glancing blow off the guardrail, but walked away.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I think I saw that too...from the passenger seat!
The car was on its second lap and I felt something weird through the seat of my pants but I figured it was the driver pushing a little too much (he was an "A" student), unfortunately it was a flat tire.
Sounds like this guy wasn't paying attention to what his car was doing and continued to push. Word of advice, if you start to feel something weird in your car just pit and take a look, you won't lose much track time and you may save your self from a serious accident.
At a DE I had run a couple sessions and went back out and had a horrible vibration, first thought was marbles I had picked up. THen I said no way and pitted. Figured a wheel needed to be torqued or something. Well that wheel was broken in the center 3/4 of the way around. I dodged a serious bullet. I can't imagine having my tire pass me going down the straight at over 120mph..
03-19-2003, 12:51 PM
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That picture gave me the absolute *******. The car looks almost identical to mine and I was supposed to be at that DE but couldn't make it at the last minute. I was literally 30 minutes from the track when I had to turn around and go back home.
I notice that the passenger side is very smushed. Was there an Instructor sitting there?
If not why not?
If the car was "out of control all day", why was the guy not black flagged and brought in for a little heart to heart with the organisers?
As a not-quite-virgin tracker this just gives me incredible pause.
It does make me feel a lot better about my decision to replace my tires early just in preparation for this DE, along with an alignment, oil change and new rear brake rotors and pads.
I notice that the passenger side is very smushed. Was there an Instructor sitting there?
If not why not?
If the car was "out of control all day", why was the guy not black flagged and brought in for a little heart to heart with the organisers?
As a not-quite-virgin tracker this just gives me incredible pause.
It does make me feel a lot better about my decision to replace my tires early just in preparation for this DE, along with an alignment, oil change and new rear brake rotors and pads.
03-19-2003, 01:18 PM
#27
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Lots of good comments here. However, with regard to tires (and other mechanical components) new ones can and do fail. Manufacturing flaws, or a combination of external items can cause catastrophic failure. For high performance driving we want to reduce the risks and ensuring that mechanical components are operationally safe should be a priority.
New does not guarantee reliablility and safety.
New does not guarantee reliablility and safety.
03-19-2003, 01:58 PM
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I did not see anything to indicate the car was out of control at any time during the day. This occurred in maybe the third session of the day and an instructor was in the car. The instructor got some cuts on his hands I believe, but was o.k. and was back outlater in the day. As the car came into turn one it looked fine and under control (other than the smoke from the rear). The car was missing a lug nut before this session and they borrowed one from my 930. I didn't really want that lug back (it was even on the tire that went out), but oh well.
My greater concern from this day was the number of people on slicks in general. So many people had them and most of these drivers are fairly novice in terms of experience. In my opinion there is really no reason for slicks on DE days as these are not racing conditions, but instruction days. The increased competetive nature of these events is likely one of the main factors that insurance companies are moving to exclude them from coverage.
My greater concern from this day was the number of people on slicks in general. So many people had them and most of these drivers are fairly novice in terms of experience. In my opinion there is really no reason for slicks on DE days as these are not racing conditions, but instruction days. The increased competetive nature of these events is likely one of the main factors that insurance companies are moving to exclude them from coverage.
03-19-2003, 02:58 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by chris walrod:
<strong>After reading these kind of bad news reports from the DE scene, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This wont stop me from trying one though.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Chris,
I agree completely with Kim. Don't let a story like this scare you. I've been an instructor with the PCA for several years and can categorically say that PCA driver's ed events are inherently safe as long as you stay within yourself.
Sure, accidents do happen, but in 99 out of 100 situations it's because someone is driving over their head.
Someone like you who is being conservative and deliberate about learning how to control your car will do wonderfully. In fact, you are the most coveted type of student from an instructor's standpoint!
I also agree that it's generally a good idea to take a drive with an instructor first. However, I have one thing to add. My region, the Riesentoter region (Philly area) has a policy that we only take our students out for rides in a lower run group, vs. in an instructor run group. This allows us to drive at 80% and be totally smooth yet give you a good feel for the capacity of the car, as well as a hell of a fun ride w/o scaring the daylights our of you :-)
We have found this approach to be a much more effective way of introducing a new driver to the track.
So, get out on the track, learn your car, enjoy yourself and keep us posted on your progress!
<strong>After reading these kind of bad news reports from the DE scene, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This wont stop me from trying one though.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Chris,
I agree completely with Kim. Don't let a story like this scare you. I've been an instructor with the PCA for several years and can categorically say that PCA driver's ed events are inherently safe as long as you stay within yourself.
Sure, accidents do happen, but in 99 out of 100 situations it's because someone is driving over their head.
Someone like you who is being conservative and deliberate about learning how to control your car will do wonderfully. In fact, you are the most coveted type of student from an instructor's standpoint!
I also agree that it's generally a good idea to take a drive with an instructor first. However, I have one thing to add. My region, the Riesentoter region (Philly area) has a policy that we only take our students out for rides in a lower run group, vs. in an instructor run group. This allows us to drive at 80% and be totally smooth yet give you a good feel for the capacity of the car, as well as a hell of a fun ride w/o scaring the daylights our of you :-)
We have found this approach to be a much more effective way of introducing a new driver to the track.
So, get out on the track, learn your car, enjoy yourself and keep us posted on your progress!
03-19-2003, 03:50 PM
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Interesting thread, and definitely food for thought! As careful as am with driving AND equipment safety, it IS important to realize that crap does occur. Having said that, there is still so much that we can do to avoid/prevent the crap from occurring.
As an intermediate driver, I know that when I do TimeTrials, I'm faster than some but Many others are faster than me. But passing nor getting passed does NOT affect my fun factor. What's really "fun" is the progress I make in learning a challenging sport; the times I get are only indicators of my progress.
So to any who may be apprehensive about doing DEs, you are going in with the right attitude: a healthy fear breeds respect. Have fun knowing that you're doing what many others only dream of doing. And as the bumper sticker says: The worst day fishing beats the best day working.
Enjoy!
Edward
As an intermediate driver, I know that when I do TimeTrials, I'm faster than some but Many others are faster than me. But passing nor getting passed does NOT affect my fun factor. What's really "fun" is the progress I make in learning a challenging sport; the times I get are only indicators of my progress.
So to any who may be apprehensive about doing DEs, you are going in with the right attitude: a healthy fear breeds respect. Have fun knowing that you're doing what many others only dream of doing. And as the bumper sticker says: The worst day fishing beats the best day working.
Enjoy!
Edward