starter issue, Bendix replaced, still an issue
#1
Burning Brakes
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Hello all, and thanks for reading.
1995 coupe, no modifications to the electrical or charging. Pretty stock everywhere else.
Newish battery, and ground cable.
I have had a strange issue for a few years, and it has become more pronounced, needs to be dealt with.
The car starts normally when cool, no immobilizer issues, hot or cold.
When the car gets to normal temp, and I stop somewhere for 5 ish minutes, heat soak gets to the starter, or something.
Immobilizer button, turn key, crank, and the starter spins without the bendix kicking it into the flywheel. zweee.
There will be a little clink after I release the key when the starter stops spinning. Happens once or twice then finally engages properly.
Now it happens 3-4 times, I wait for the car to cool a little, and it will work normally. Embarrassing at the gas station after a fillup.
Actions tried so far:
Removed starter, disassembled, cleaned, replaced bendix. Clean ground cable at starter.
Replaced ground cable at battery, good ground there.
Checked relay #61, opened, no overheat there, thinking it was not providing enough current. looks new.
There are a few occurrences of this issue in the archives, but they did not post any resolution.
Need someone with the electrical "Path" that happens during start to fill in the blanks:
Starter connections:
Starter is grounded. Thick cable goes directly to battery. Additional wire provides go signal to starter.
Turn key to crank, it energizes relay 61?
Current goes from #61 directly to starter?
Does the starter spin as the bendix kicks the gear forward? Or....?
I recall shop class discussing old starters, the bendix kicked, and when it made contact internally, current was applied to spin the starter motor.
1995 coupe, no modifications to the electrical or charging. Pretty stock everywhere else.
Newish battery, and ground cable.
I have had a strange issue for a few years, and it has become more pronounced, needs to be dealt with.
The car starts normally when cool, no immobilizer issues, hot or cold.
When the car gets to normal temp, and I stop somewhere for 5 ish minutes, heat soak gets to the starter, or something.
Immobilizer button, turn key, crank, and the starter spins without the bendix kicking it into the flywheel. zweee.
There will be a little clink after I release the key when the starter stops spinning. Happens once or twice then finally engages properly.
Now it happens 3-4 times, I wait for the car to cool a little, and it will work normally. Embarrassing at the gas station after a fillup.
Actions tried so far:
Removed starter, disassembled, cleaned, replaced bendix. Clean ground cable at starter.
Replaced ground cable at battery, good ground there.
Checked relay #61, opened, no overheat there, thinking it was not providing enough current. looks new.
There are a few occurrences of this issue in the archives, but they did not post any resolution.
Need someone with the electrical "Path" that happens during start to fill in the blanks:
Starter connections:
Starter is grounded. Thick cable goes directly to battery. Additional wire provides go signal to starter.
Turn key to crank, it energizes relay 61?
Current goes from #61 directly to starter?
Does the starter spin as the bendix kicks the gear forward? Or....?
I recall shop class discussing old starters, the bendix kicked, and when it made contact internally, current was applied to spin the starter motor.
Last edited by techman1; 09-08-2021 at 05:25 PM.
#2
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Did you also replace the solenoid that kicks the Bendix into position to engage the gear on one flywheel?
Andy
Andy
#4
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These are some educated guesses:
The smaller wire connection to the solenoid has hidden corrosion in or near its termination adding resistance so it is not getting power consistently to insert the Bendix fully- most likely
The moving parts in the Bendix/solenoid are not smooth or have developed burrs and need to be inspected for hanging up. Sanding the cast housing parts smooth with 600-1000 grit sandpaper and using a little high-temperature grease may help.
The ring gear engagement is not good due to ring gear damage - unlikely.
Just some thoughts,
Andy
The smaller wire connection to the solenoid has hidden corrosion in or near its termination adding resistance so it is not getting power consistently to insert the Bendix fully- most likely
The moving parts in the Bendix/solenoid are not smooth or have developed burrs and need to be inspected for hanging up. Sanding the cast housing parts smooth with 600-1000 grit sandpaper and using a little high-temperature grease may help.
The ring gear engagement is not good due to ring gear damage - unlikely.
Just some thoughts,
Andy
#5
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Yes. The immobilizer turns R61 on when disarmed and ignition is ON (immo Pin 16 to R61 term 86).
Yes. When energized, R61 passes the ignition "START" signal directly to the starter solenoid (R61 term 87 to starter control).
The ignition switch, immo and R61 appear to be doing their job. I've never been inside that starter but sounds mechanical to me.
Have you tried try bench-testing the starter? That'll tell you whether it's in the starter or the vehicle. Plus you can test your high temperature hypothesis.
Yes. When energized, R61 passes the ignition "START" signal directly to the starter solenoid (R61 term 87 to starter control).
The ignition switch, immo and R61 appear to be doing their job. I've never been inside that starter but sounds mechanical to me.
Have you tried try bench-testing the starter? That'll tell you whether it's in the starter or the vehicle. Plus you can test your high temperature hypothesis.
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#6
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Yes. The immobilizer turns R61 on when disarmed and ignition is ON (immo Pin 16 to R61 term 86).
Yes. When energized, R61 passes the ignition "START" signal directly to the starter solenoid (R61 term 87 to starter control).
The ignition switch, immo and R61 appear to be doing their job. I've never been inside that starter but sounds mechanical to me.
Have you tried try bench-testing the starter? That'll tell you whether it's in the starter or the vehicle. Plus you can test your high temperature hypothesis.
Yes. When energized, R61 passes the ignition "START" signal directly to the starter solenoid (R61 term 87 to starter control).
The ignition switch, immo and R61 appear to be doing their job. I've never been inside that starter but sounds mechanical to me.
Have you tried try bench-testing the starter? That'll tell you whether it's in the starter or the vehicle. Plus you can test your high temperature hypothesis.
"Immobilizer button, turn key, crank, and the starter spins without the Bendix kicking it into the flywheel."
Suggests the solenoid is sticking due to friction internal to it, friction in the Bendix, a bad solenoid out-of-the-box or a corroded control wire to the Bendix reducing the force the internal coil applies to the plunger.
#7
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After some additional thought, the solenoid's plunger is moving far enough to cause it to engage its internal switch powering the starter's motor. Could it be that the starter is not fully seated to the bell housing and so doesn't reliably engage with the ring gear?
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#8
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In some starters the pinion is designed to engage the flywheel before the contactor closes and applies power to the starter. If the 993 starter is of that type, the fact that the contactor has closed (OP notes starter is spinning) implies the solenoid has traveled far enough that it should have already engaged the flywheel. Why the pinion isn't is the mystery. If anything were binding inside the starter, the solenoid wouldn't be able to move far enough to close the contactor, but it is. Two possibilities: 1) the actuator arm connection to the solenoid is flaky or 2) the pinion is being driven outward ok but it's slipping on the starter shaft. Either of those would match the symptoms OP noted.
Excellent starter motor animation
Excellent starter motor animation
Last edited by jay@EZimmoblock.com; 08-14-2021 at 01:10 PM.
The following 2 users liked this post by jay@EZimmoblock.com:
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#9
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Low current circuit is pulling in the "motor disk" in solenoid allowing high current circuit to actuate motor. Motor runs fine. Sounds like the part of the solenoid for the mechanical actuation of the bendix lever is not completing full travel. May appear to be a mechanical bind in the lever that worsens when hot. I would think the lever should operate the bendix with little or no resistance at all times.
Last edited by Dan Riley; 08-14-2021 at 01:20 PM.
#10
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I had a warm/hot start issue last year. Held me up at the Costco gas station right before a PCA driving tour.
Turned out to be the ISV and a parasitic battery drain. Replaced both and the car fires up instantly all the time, even after running numerous errands in our Texas summer.
Turned out to be the ISV and a parasitic battery drain. Replaced both and the car fires up instantly all the time, even after running numerous errands in our Texas summer.
#11
Burning Brakes
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Dan and Jay,
Good food for thought. Bendix replaced, it is good.
The actual lever it pulls when actuated might be binding when hot.
I am getting good at starter removal.
I will wait and see if anyone has battled this exact challenge and had a fix.
If not , I will remove and disassemble the starter. Again.
Good food for thought. Bendix replaced, it is good.
The actual lever it pulls when actuated might be binding when hot.
I am getting good at starter removal.
I will wait and see if anyone has battled this exact challenge and had a fix.
If not , I will remove and disassemble the starter. Again.
#13
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Dan and Jay,
Good food for thought. Bendix replaced, it is good.
The actual lever it pulls when actuated might be binding when hot.
I am getting good at starter removal.
I will wait and see if anyone has battled this exact challenge and had a fix.
If not , I will remove and disassemble the starter. Again.
Good food for thought. Bendix replaced, it is good.
The actual lever it pulls when actuated might be binding when hot.
I am getting good at starter removal.
I will wait and see if anyone has battled this exact challenge and had a fix.
If not , I will remove and disassemble the starter. Again.
Post some pics of the innards if you can.
Last edited by jay@EZimmoblock.com; 08-16-2021 at 12:29 PM.