austin944

Why would you not consider Ebay to be a valuable price guide?

In cases where the car sells, you have a completed transaction for a car that is essentially advertised nationwide, and it is an advertising medium which is checked by many savvy buyers.

There may be price variations due to condition, location, options, etc. but as a general guide I don't see anything wrong with it.

laurence '97 C4S

I for one, believe there is way to much room for shennagins with ebay results to trust them. If you KNOW the facts surrounding the sale (ie it is a legit buyer/ seller) then it is ONE data point you can use (and only one based on all the other variations discussed that impact price). More likely than not, you will not know the real story on an ebay car.

austin944

Do you mean shill bidding? Worst case, the shill bid wins the car by just a nose. You still have a pretty good indication of the value of that car, and similar cars, if it sells.

DC from Cape Cod

I think cars on Ebay sell for less than what a car seen in person would sell for due to the risk/unknowns involved.

More risk = more reward = lower price.

Basic economics. Same would apply to any item whose value is extremely dependent upon condition...if you can see it in person, your confidence level is higher and that yields a higher determination of value.

You are, or course, free to use whatever criteria you like. I tend to weigh more heavily those mediums that I would use to sell my car (if I ever did) and Ebay is not one of them.

austin944

What you say is true, but I think it assumes there are few or no local bidders. A seller could advertise locally and still have the car on EBay.

DC from Cape Cod

Correct...but statistically speaking, almost every potential buyer will be too far away to view the car.

Carrera Mike

2ndof2, Check Edmunds.com and Nalda too. Compare the 3

lexpilot

The cheapest cars are on ebay. I use that as a lowest price barometer. Most of the cars offered without a reserve price have some minor blemish that has chased away the local buyers. Autotrader can be the best tool for determining price if you have the time to compare several cars in the local regionS (plural) you are looking in. Porsches are more expensive from the first of March through about July. After that the market gets softer and softer until it picks up the following spring. Best buys are around Thanksgiving. By January the sellers are determined to hold out a little for spring.

austin944

The problem with Autotrader is that those are asking prices. You want actual selling prices. I think EBay along with selling prices mentioned here are an excellent guideline.

If a car doesn't meet reserve on EBay because people can't see it in person, then that's one car you don't consider in your pricing evaluation.

nile13

Some very good points in this discussion.

I very much agree that the market is insufficient and the condition of the car weighs heavily into the price when the car is not a commodity and is expensive to fix.

I disagree with dismissing eBay. I think eBay have become one of the truest barometers of the value of anything today, since it gives you a _huge_ exposure. I bought my autocross car on eBay, for example. It was just a street car then in pristine condition with 10,5K miles on it. So there are different examples there. If you familiarize yourself with eBay (takes months, admittedly, if not years), you can draw a lot of conclusions. But it's true for any marketplace.

The car I mentioned... John D saw it and thought is was nice and clean. The seller is asking $32K and he doesn't have to sell it, nor does he really want to. My suggestion was to offer $28K and not to pay more than $30K. If I was buying it, I'd offer $27K, but I know the buyer wants it. We'll see, I'm curious of outcome.

DC from Cape Cod

I thought we were talking about the car that John bought for himself......my mistake.

Regarding Ebay....I think your logic is sound for most items...but not for items whose value is extremely dependent on condition. I would NEVER have bought my car via Ebay...not even for half the price...because I could not verify condition via Ebay. Would you buy a $60K diamond on Ebay?

nile13

DC, I would possibly buy a $60K diamond before I would buy a $60K car - diamond seem to be more easily classified by a professional appraiser than cars

There is another side of eBay that people are forgetting. There's auction feavor. I think it often outpaces the restrain of not seeing the car.

BTW, I bought my car sight unseen (come to think of it, it's the 8th car I bought this way in the last 9 years, plus 2 for my mom, so it doesn't phase me anymore). I had 2 Rennlisters look at it (Boris Techsler, who owns an identical car, being one of them) then had professional PPI. I know I'm not alone as I looked at 2 993s in the last 3 weeks for potential owners as well.

User 4621

I agree with DC about Ebay. I would never buy a car via Ebay unless I could see it in person first.

I DID buy my car sight unseen, but via Rennlist, and only after receiving numerous high resolution images and with the input of other Rennlist members that saw the car in person and verified condition.

As a buyer, a car is worth whatever it's worth to you. There will ALWAYS be someone who got a far better deal than you did. Who cares, this isn't a competition. How can you value the hours NOT behind the wheel of the car you love because you're looking for a steal? How can you value the years of decreased pleasure because you bought a car that's not quite what you wanted because it was a steal, instead of the car you really wanted because it was a bit more expensive? Life's too short.

PS: I do have to disagree with you, DC, on value of personal time. I typically bill out at $295/hr. If I use that number to value my time I would never mow the lawn, garden, clean the garage, etc. My time spent watching TV, reading a book, or staring at Rennlist is the time I take away from to research and buy cars, not my professional time. As such it does not have a dollar value, it's either free or priceless, depending on the day.

DC from Cape Cod

Fair enough.

My time with my kids, at home, etc. is personal time and does not represent lost income - we spend that time in a manner of our own choosing. I also cut my own lawn....it takes 3 hours twice a week and I enjoy every step. However, I pay someone to clean the pool because I hate doing it.

My time looking for a car cut into my work time and, as such, cost me money. All those hours spent looking at cars that were falsely represented was not fun...especially considering that I was not buying them or, more improtantly, driving them. If I could have snapped my fingers, written the check and had the car in the garage I would have done so....and it would have been a lot cheaper in the long run.

With two little kids, I simply couldn't afford to spend personal time looking for a car...it had to come out of the business end.

Mike - would you still buy that diamond with only the Seller's word as to its condition? Most buyers do not have access to Rennlist and its members to check out cars for them.

It has been my experience that the very best cars don't usually make it onto Ebay...they are privately sold or sold through a broker. If I ever sell mine, it will most likely go through Dave Maynard...which is where I got it from in the first place.

Buying a car through Ebay is like getting a mail-order bride.....the pictures may make your mouth water but you can't be sure of the mileage or the condition.

nile13

DC, this is a very good question. You see, eBay, despite their opinion otherwise, is not really a binding commitement. You can walk away from the car after you "win" it and I have done so once because the car was completely misrepresented. The result was a single bad feedback. Not pleasant, but financially harmless.

I would (and do) talk to the seller in great detail. I ask for photos. I then ask sombody to go look at it. Having friends helps :-) If it's an expensive enough car, I schedule a PPI. I also understand that, like any car buying, this is a lottery.

I understand perfectly well that it's not for everybody. But the law of averages tells me that a car exposed to a much larger audience than any local broker is possibly capable of doing will garner a market value. That's what "market value" is, actually, in my mind. In other words some will shy away from it, but there will be enough others to make it a true representation of the market overall and the value.

I'm curious about something, if I may ask. Mostly because at this point in my life I can't afford to just write a check (oh, I wish I could ). Did you buy your car new? That would be ultimately easy - come in, write a check, drive. However, it appears to me that great majority of us on Rennlist did not buy 993s new. I'm wondering why (yes, my first love was anthropology, not engineering ).