suspension tuning in dallas
03-10-2004, 01:01 PM
#16
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George,
I'm running the Moton Clubsports with full ERP monoball (camber plates, A-arm bushings, links). I have the rear reservoirs mounted in front of the transmission on the underside of the car. Lines are zip-tied to one of the rear suspension crossmembers. Front resevoirs are ziptied to the strut bar. Mechanic but some bicycle inner-tubing onto the strut bar where reservoirs are.
From memory, my mechanic had to fabricate for the ABS in the front, as well as the shock top openings so we could get full adjustment with the camber plates. Had to fab the rear RS sway bar so we could use all three holes.
There's a long story on the install issues for everything that we can talk about at the BMW DE if you'd like.
I'm running the Moton Clubsports with full ERP monoball (camber plates, A-arm bushings, links). I have the rear reservoirs mounted in front of the transmission on the underside of the car. Lines are zip-tied to one of the rear suspension crossmembers. Front resevoirs are ziptied to the strut bar. Mechanic but some bicycle inner-tubing onto the strut bar where reservoirs are.
From memory, my mechanic had to fabricate for the ABS in the front, as well as the shock top openings so we could get full adjustment with the camber plates. Had to fab the rear RS sway bar so we could use all three holes.
There's a long story on the install issues for everything that we can talk about at the BMW DE if you'd like.
03-10-2004, 01:28 PM
#17
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Sounds good Kevin. Are you staying for the BBQ dinner on Saturday at the track? If so, I want to hear all about your install experience. BTW, who did your install and were you happy with it? I've been told to take my car down to Austin when I'm ready to go to the next step.
Karim, you might want to take your car to the place that did Kevin's install since it looks like they’ve done at least one. I can tell you that I don’t know anyone locally that has the setup.
Bob, what’s wrong with mounting the rear reservoirs to any of the rear control arm? Granted they’ll get some heat, but for some reason (I don’t remember) I thought they needed to be outside the car. Does the PCA count your setup as cockpit adjustable?
George
Karim, you might want to take your car to the place that did Kevin's install since it looks like they’ve done at least one. I can tell you that I don’t know anyone locally that has the setup.
Bob, what’s wrong with mounting the rear reservoirs to any of the rear control arm? Granted they’ll get some heat, but for some reason (I don’t remember) I thought they needed to be outside the car. Does the PCA count your setup as cockpit adjustable?
George
03-10-2004, 03:18 PM
#18
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just got off the phone with lex at moton ..... he says that there is very little experience in all of texas with moton cs in 993's. bobby archer in fort worth has done 3 in total and moore sport in austin has done one (maybe it's kevin's car). he had some interesting pointers -- he said it's better to drill a large enough hole (3 inch) into the body to advance the entire reservoir canister than to take apart the hose because he has seen people lose fluid and to get the shock back to spec you pretty much have to send it to moton or know exactly what you're doing. also just worth noting moton had a price increase on march 1st. the shocks are now 3195 but at hrpworld.com you can still get them at the old price of 2699.
03-10-2004, 05:14 PM
#19
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I did not like the thought of drilling a 3" hole into my interior. Anyway, you have to depressurize the shock and swivel the fittings to get them in the right orientation when they are installed anyway. I just purged the nitrogen, then disconnected the hose at the reservoir and then very quickly reconnected the hose once it was inside the interior. VERY little oil was lost. Of course you also need a tank of nitrogen to then re-fill them after bleeding off the air that get inside.
See, not your standard PSS9 install. But the end results are great...
Bob
See, not your standard PSS9 install. But the end results are great...
Bob
03-10-2004, 05:34 PM
#20
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George,
I didn't sign up for the bbq dinner @ $18; that's alot of coin for some ribs. But I'll be around and will make sure to get with you. I will be towing this time, so plan on being up on the hill with all of you instructors.
Karim guessed it, my Moton Clubsport install was done at Moorespeed (http://www.moorespeed.com) You want to talk to David Moore. He's very knowledgable and I highly recommend him. When he spoke with Lex in February, so I was told, I was only the sixth 993 w/Moton Clubsports. I know four others on Rennlist so that's only one remaining?
The biggest issue we had with the install was that the rear shocks had no suspension droop. If you speak to my mechanic (Dave) he will have some not nice things to say about them - this from the point of view of having had to do all the work. So far I'm fine with the overall results, as I just drive. No spring binding or boinging, and the ride is not too harsh on the street. I've only track tested the new setup during the four sessions at MSR on Saturday, so I can't really give any definitive handling comments. My mechanic says that MSR is worthless when trying to setup suspension because of the off camber turns. I think TWS, where I'm faster, will be the big test.
"Does the PCA count your setup as cockpit adjustable?"
Going club racing soon?
I didn't sign up for the bbq dinner @ $18; that's alot of coin for some ribs. But I'll be around and will make sure to get with you. I will be towing this time, so plan on being up on the hill with all of you instructors.
Karim guessed it, my Moton Clubsport install was done at Moorespeed (http://www.moorespeed.com) You want to talk to David Moore. He's very knowledgable and I highly recommend him. When he spoke with Lex in February, so I was told, I was only the sixth 993 w/Moton Clubsports. I know four others on Rennlist so that's only one remaining?
The biggest issue we had with the install was that the rear shocks had no suspension droop. If you speak to my mechanic (Dave) he will have some not nice things to say about them - this from the point of view of having had to do all the work. So far I'm fine with the overall results, as I just drive. No spring binding or boinging, and the ride is not too harsh on the street. I've only track tested the new setup during the four sessions at MSR on Saturday, so I can't really give any definitive handling comments. My mechanic says that MSR is worthless when trying to setup suspension because of the off camber turns. I think TWS, where I'm faster, will be the big test.
"Does the PCA count your setup as cockpit adjustable?"
Going club racing soon?
03-11-2004, 11:09 AM
#21
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kevin, george im working on the weekend of the 27th, but if you guys or whoever else from pca or rennlist are over in this area (i live 20 minutes north east of cresson off of I 20) and want to drop by on the evening of the 27th for beer or wine or dinner, you're welcome. by then I'll have my motons installed ........ by someone, somewhere.
03-16-2004, 09:06 PM
#22
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Interesting!
Kev wrote:
Kev,
I have Moton CS also on my 993TT and on my car actually, the front Moton shocks are the one that have minimal amount of droop while the rear is only skightly less than stock.
You can see on the following picture the amount of droop of the front Moton (it actually looks like the US 993 suspension under load)
The biggest issue we had with the install was that the rear shocks had no suspension droop.
I have Moton CS also on my 993TT and on my car actually, the front Moton shocks are the one that have minimal amount of droop while the rear is only skightly less than stock.
You can see on the following picture the amount of droop of the front Moton (it actually looks like the US 993 suspension under load)
03-16-2004, 10:15 PM
#23
RL Technical Advisor
A few notes about Moton installations are really in order,...
1) Like ALL race parts, these kinds of things require experience to install and setup. After 28+ years at this in the professional and amateur racing environments, I'm unaware of any racing parts, factory or otherwise that are literally "bolt-on" and all require some fiddling to execute properly.
2) Motons, like all racing shocks, are shorter than stock shocks and cannot be setup at "normal" ride heights. To ensure proper bump & droop travel, they have to be used at RS or lower ride heights to prevent topping or bottoming.
3) Moton only provides shocks;....its up to the supplier to provide the spring package and that really takes some experience with these cars to know what setup is best for whom and for what applications,...
4) The reserviours can be mounted in a variety of ways and in many places. Every shop and individual has an opinion on this based on long-term experience with street & race cars. I'd be happy to e-mail some pics of some installs to anyone contemplating the purchase and installation of these things. We make some special brackets to attach the front reserviours to the front strut brace.
5) Although the Clubsports are only 1 1/2 yrs old, Moton has been making their race shocks since '97 and JRZ has been used on 911's of all kinds for many years. Its not unproven or dramatically new technology. Nobody is a "guinea pig" unless the installer has limited or no experience with racing suspension on 993's.
Lastly, everything we do to these cars in the street environment is a compromise and when using a very high end suspension component originally designed for competition usage, one must expect to make accomodations in the installation and deployment.
1) Like ALL race parts, these kinds of things require experience to install and setup. After 28+ years at this in the professional and amateur racing environments, I'm unaware of any racing parts, factory or otherwise that are literally "bolt-on" and all require some fiddling to execute properly.
2) Motons, like all racing shocks, are shorter than stock shocks and cannot be setup at "normal" ride heights. To ensure proper bump & droop travel, they have to be used at RS or lower ride heights to prevent topping or bottoming.
3) Moton only provides shocks;....its up to the supplier to provide the spring package and that really takes some experience with these cars to know what setup is best for whom and for what applications,...
4) The reserviours can be mounted in a variety of ways and in many places. Every shop and individual has an opinion on this based on long-term experience with street & race cars. I'd be happy to e-mail some pics of some installs to anyone contemplating the purchase and installation of these things. We make some special brackets to attach the front reserviours to the front strut brace.
5) Although the Clubsports are only 1 1/2 yrs old, Moton has been making their race shocks since '97 and JRZ has been used on 911's of all kinds for many years. Its not unproven or dramatically new technology. Nobody is a "guinea pig" unless the installer has limited or no experience with racing suspension on 993's.
Lastly, everything we do to these cars in the street environment is a compromise and when using a very high end suspension component originally designed for competition usage, one must expect to make accomodations in the installation and deployment.
03-16-2004, 11:47 PM
#25
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When I had my suspension done, I went to Tony Richards at Autobahn Exotics in Dallas. If you check with the Ferrari and Lotus folks, they also have a lot of great things to say about him. I met him when I had a Lotus. He's been fair, provided an amazing amount of professional talent and has let me help him in the shop to learn more.
He put on the suspension and aligned it using a Dunlap tool by hand. Not a bad price and plenty of craftsmanship. The car drives like a dream.
His number is 972-245-5341. The folks at Boardwalk are nice too.
Mark
He put on the suspension and aligned it using a Dunlap tool by hand. Not a bad price and plenty of craftsmanship. The car drives like a dream.
His number is 972-245-5341. The folks at Boardwalk are nice too.
Mark
03-16-2004, 11:58 PM
#26
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Since I was the one that used "guinea pig", I'll speak up here.
I stand by what I've said earlier. While I know very little about race suspensions I'll assume that with any new product run it is the first group of purchasers who ultimately serve as QA/QC in the early going. I was told by Moton that I was only the sixth 993 with these new parts. These are some of the early issues I've heard of or experienced:
When I got my shocks the rears were 964 shocks. Apparently, there is no part # for the 964 and 993 shocks. There is only a slight visual difference of 2" between the two. A simple part # would have saved my mechanic 3-4 days work.
I had no droop in the rear. Two others have had no droop in the front.
I was told by another Rennlister that on his set of front shocks one of the rebound adjusters wouldn't clear the shock top. When he got the replacement shock, it didn't (the rebound adjuster) match the remaining original shock in length. Had to get another replacement to match.
Need for ABS brackets.
While I fully understand that many variables are in play here from ride heights, mechanic's experience, to each 993 being different, I feel the above are legitimate issues. I'll guess that as more and more of these parts are installed, these problems will be ironed out. To be clear, I'm not trying to slam Moton or dissuade anyone from purchasing their new product, just trying to provide full disclosure for others. With the above issues in mind I am happy with the final results on my car.
No flame intended here, that's just been my experience
I stand by what I've said earlier. While I know very little about race suspensions I'll assume that with any new product run it is the first group of purchasers who ultimately serve as QA/QC in the early going. I was told by Moton that I was only the sixth 993 with these new parts. These are some of the early issues I've heard of or experienced:
When I got my shocks the rears were 964 shocks. Apparently, there is no part # for the 964 and 993 shocks. There is only a slight visual difference of 2" between the two. A simple part # would have saved my mechanic 3-4 days work.
I had no droop in the rear. Two others have had no droop in the front.
I was told by another Rennlister that on his set of front shocks one of the rebound adjusters wouldn't clear the shock top. When he got the replacement shock, it didn't (the rebound adjuster) match the remaining original shock in length. Had to get another replacement to match.
Need for ABS brackets.
While I fully understand that many variables are in play here from ride heights, mechanic's experience, to each 993 being different, I feel the above are legitimate issues. I'll guess that as more and more of these parts are installed, these problems will be ironed out. To be clear, I'm not trying to slam Moton or dissuade anyone from purchasing their new product, just trying to provide full disclosure for others. With the above issues in mind I am happy with the final results on my car.
No flame intended here, that's just been my experience
03-17-2004, 12:06 AM
#27
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steve please do send me some pics of your installs. my email address is "ksjcorpus@hotmail.com". also do you sell the abs/brake line brakets for the front strut? im going to take your advice and take my car over to bobby archer for the install once i have all the parts together.
