Lower Ride Height but Preserve Ride Quality: M033, H&R or ??
03-03-2004, 07:34 AM
#31
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally posted by GrantG
I love my H&R/Bilstein HD setup. Springs are progressive, so it's quite a comfortable ride.
I love my H&R/Bilstein HD setup. Springs are progressive, so it's quite a comfortable ride.
03-03-2004, 02:39 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Originally posted by Speedraser
For my 1000th post
Bob,
FWIW, here is a shot of my stock-suspended '95. Your car looks a lot higher in front. I have no idea how full the gas tank was. Also FWIW, I plan to install Bilstein HDs, with either RoW M030, M033 or H&Rs. I'm leaning toward the M030 because my understanding (from this board) is that it's the best match for the HDs.
For my 1000th post
Bob,
FWIW, here is a shot of my stock-suspended '95. Your car looks a lot higher in front. I have no idea how full the gas tank was. Also FWIW, I plan to install Bilstein HDs, with either RoW M030, M033 or H&Rs. I'm leaning toward the M030 because my understanding (from this board) is that it's the best match for the HDs.
03-03-2004, 06:13 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
What is the problem in a car that has shocks that are too stiff relative to the springs? Although I know what an underdamped suspension feels like, I don't know what an "overdamped" setup feels like.
Darin,
I don't want to go too low -- the NY roads are truly horrible. Your car looks great, though.
Darin,
I don't want to go too low -- the NY roads are truly horrible. Your car looks great, though.
03-03-2004, 06:35 PM
#36
Addicted Specialist
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Rennlist Member
Hi Todd,
An overdamped shock relative to its springrate isn't a common situation, especially in cars, since there aren't that many really stiffly-valved dampers out there nor vendors who would sell you a soft spring without telling you, "hey buddy, that's a pretty soft spring, you sure you want to go with that?" Nevertheless, I have felt this situation in my motorcycle days since you can adjust damping and spring rate of forks independently, and pretty easily. Basically, an overdamped wheel will not rebound quickly enough after compression. So if you have a series of bumps, say ripples or railroad tracks in the road, the wheel is still trying to travel downward after the first compression as you travel forward and hit the second compression (some call this "pump down"). What you feel is a harsh ride, and one that tends to hop over a series of irregularities instead of tracking cleanly through them. This is especially "disconcerting" while leaned over at mach 2, and you feel like you're skating sideways across road irregularities instead of simply riding through them!
...But I digress. In a car in a turn, it can be felt as "rough," at best; at its worst, you can lose traction suddenly and unexpectedly as soon as you hit those irregularities.... hope you weren't going too fast. As a side note, this is why someone with LOTS of experience in suspension dynamics is critical in setting up a competition suspension as you have more variables to deal with (PSS9 owners got it easy with just one ****!). With inexpert tuning, you may actually even become slower with incorrectly setup compression/rebound and spring preload.
Edward
An overdamped shock relative to its springrate isn't a common situation, especially in cars, since there aren't that many really stiffly-valved dampers out there nor vendors who would sell you a soft spring without telling you, "hey buddy, that's a pretty soft spring, you sure you want to go with that?" Nevertheless, I have felt this situation in my motorcycle days since you can adjust damping and spring rate of forks independently, and pretty easily. Basically, an overdamped wheel will not rebound quickly enough after compression. So if you have a series of bumps, say ripples or railroad tracks in the road, the wheel is still trying to travel downward after the first compression as you travel forward and hit the second compression (some call this "pump down"). What you feel is a harsh ride, and one that tends to hop over a series of irregularities instead of tracking cleanly through them. This is especially "disconcerting" while leaned over at mach 2, and you feel like you're skating sideways across road irregularities instead of simply riding through them!
...But I digress. In a car in a turn, it can be felt as "rough," at best; at its worst, you can lose traction suddenly and unexpectedly as soon as you hit those irregularities.... hope you weren't going too fast. As a side note, this is why someone with LOTS of experience in suspension dynamics is critical in setting up a competition suspension as you have more variables to deal with (PSS9 owners got it easy with just one ****!). With inexpert tuning, you may actually even become slower with incorrectly setup compression/rebound and spring preload.Edward
04-30-2004, 02:38 PM
#38
Racer
Thread Starter
UPDATE! SUCCESS!!!!
And now, the rest of the story:
After doing lots of research and receiving plenty of good input, I went with the following combination, all from the extremely helpful Gert, sponsor www.carnewal.com
--factory M033 springs;
--Bilstein HD shocks with extra thread;
--M030 front and rear sway bars;
--Front protection bar;
--strut brace;
--expert alignment, corner balance and ride height set to M030/033 specs.
After logging a few miles, I could not be happier with the results.
I really feel that this is almost a magic combination of ride height, handling and comfort that would be an excellent choice for any 993 that is primarily street driven.
Smooth, compliant and unruffled over bumps, yet tremendously crisper, faster, more communicative handling. Compared to the worn out stock suspension, my car now handles like a go-kart. For track use I'm sure there are more aggressive choices that make more sense for that application, but for street driven cars where ride comfort is also a consideration, I can't imagine a better set-up. Everything seems smooth, quiet and tight, not bone jarring or hard on the car like some stiffer set-ups I've ridden in (just my humble opinion).
All the install work was done by Kauth & Mayeur in Peoria, Illinois. This shop is owned by rennlister and former 993 owner Michael B., and like other rennlisters who have used Michael's shop recently, I had an exceptional experience from start to finish. Michael's personal attention to 993s in his shop is amazing. Thanks Michael and crew!
Also want to thank Viken,
who first began giving me info on the little-known M033/HD combo over a year ago, (I guess in true HWFM turtle fashion, even my decision-making process was a slow one!) and has since patiently provided a lot of other info, including the ride height specs.
Obviously this is just my opinion and experience, but to me one of the primary benefits of rennlist is sharing this kind of feedback. Hope this information helps somebody else who may be looking to vastly improve the handling and appearance of their 993 without rattling either the car or their aging bones!
After doing lots of research and receiving plenty of good input, I went with the following combination, all from the extremely helpful Gert, sponsor www.carnewal.com
--factory M033 springs;
--Bilstein HD shocks with extra thread;
--M030 front and rear sway bars;
--Front protection bar;
--strut brace;
--expert alignment, corner balance and ride height set to M030/033 specs.
After logging a few miles, I could not be happier with the results.
I really feel that this is almost a magic combination of ride height, handling and comfort that would be an excellent choice for any 993 that is primarily street driven. Smooth, compliant and unruffled over bumps, yet tremendously crisper, faster, more communicative handling. Compared to the worn out stock suspension, my car now handles like a go-kart. For track use I'm sure there are more aggressive choices that make more sense for that application, but for street driven cars where ride comfort is also a consideration, I can't imagine a better set-up. Everything seems smooth, quiet and tight, not bone jarring or hard on the car like some stiffer set-ups I've ridden in (just my humble opinion).
All the install work was done by Kauth & Mayeur in Peoria, Illinois. This shop is owned by rennlister and former 993 owner Michael B., and like other rennlisters who have used Michael's shop recently, I had an exceptional experience from start to finish. Michael's personal attention to 993s in his shop is amazing. Thanks Michael and crew!
Also want to thank Viken,
who first began giving me info on the little-known M033/HD combo over a year ago, (I guess in true HWFM turtle fashion, even my decision-making process was a slow one!) and has since patiently provided a lot of other info, including the ride height specs. Obviously this is just my opinion and experience, but to me one of the primary benefits of rennlist is sharing this kind of feedback. Hope this information helps somebody else who may be looking to vastly improve the handling and appearance of their 993 without rattling either the car or their aging bones!
Last edited by Bob D.; 04-30-2004 at 03:42 PM.
04-30-2004, 09:59 PM
#40
Three Wheelin'
Glad to hear you made a decision, and that you're happy with it. I, however, haven't just yet. Did you ride in a RoW M030 with HD car? If so, was it "bone jarring or hard on the car"? I've been leaning in that direction for my primarily-street-driven-but-sometimes-tracked car, but I haven't committed yet.
04-30-2004, 10:28 PM
#41
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Re: UPDATE! SUCCESS!!!!
Originally posted by Bob D.
And now, the rest of the story:
And now, the rest of the story:
Your car is superb. I really enjoyed working with it. Enjoy it!
04-30-2004, 10:36 PM
#42
Keeper of the Truth
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Re: UPDATE! SUCCESS!!!!
Originally posted by Bob D.
Also want to thank Viken, who first began giving me info on the little-known M033/HD combo over a year ago, (I guess in true HWFM turtle fashion, even my decision-making process was a slow one!) and has since patiently provided a lot of other info, including the ride height specs.
Also want to thank Viken,
who first began giving me info on the little-known M033/HD combo over a year ago, (I guess in true HWFM turtle fashion, even my decision-making process was a slow one!) and has since patiently provided a lot of other info, including the ride height specs.
05-01-2004, 12:53 AM
#43
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Re: UPDATE! SUCCESS!!!!
Congrats Bob, enjoy the new car!
Originally posted by Bob D.
And now, the rest of the story:
Obviously this is just my opinion and experience, but to me one of the primary benefits of rennlist is sharing this kind of feedback. Hope this information helps somebody else who may be looking to vastly improve the handling and appearance of their 993 without rattling either the car or their aging bones!
And now, the rest of the story:
Obviously this is just my opinion and experience, but to me one of the primary benefits of rennlist is sharing this kind of feedback. Hope this information helps somebody else who may be looking to vastly improve the handling and appearance of their 993 without rattling either the car or their aging bones!
