964 C4 vs 993 C4 handling
12-19-2002, 04:50 AM
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964 C4 vs 993 C4 handling
I have read / heard (where?) that the 964 C4 cars really understeered and the front wheel drivetrain contribution was evident and that the 993 C4 is not only more neutral but also more seamless. Anyone out there actually have seat time in both examples?
Thanks!
Thanks!
12-19-2002, 07:08 AM
#2
I went from a 964/C4 targa (std spec) to what I presently have; a 993/C4 coupe with M03 factory mod. suspension. Maybe I'm slow & old, but it took me almost 6 months to feel confident/ comfortable in the 993 - and for months I rued the day I had hastily chopped-in my 964 for a 993.
Looking back, I still much prefer the 964 for it's feel. Ultimately the 964 does not have the same level of adhesion thru' the twisty bits as the 993, and when it finally lets go (on oversteer) it's predictable, safe and fun. Powered 4WD drifts and side-sliding the rear wheels to thru' a bend balanced by the accelerator are relatively easy. Body roll & suspension travel seemed tighter, and more hard edge than the 993/M03.
The 964 4WD system tho' 'agricultural' (when compared to the smoothness of delivery of the industry standard 993 system) was, from a handling viewpoint, far more sophisticated. You actually 'feel' the front end pull the rear out of trouble when it's been overcooked.
But, time served with the 993 is slowly winning me over. Truth is, the 993 is actually covering the same roads at higher speeds (I reckon, 15-20% quicker). As a result there are far less opportunities to experience the car getting unstuck, but when it does, it bites, and you have to be quick to catch the rear end - which the simpler/dumbed down 993 4WD system does not tame as effectively as the 964's.
Many on this site consider the 993 the last & greatest 911; I believe, the greatest 911 was the 964. Once you step into a 993 you've already been 'softened-up' to lose you soul for the 996! Ahhhhhhh those clever marketing boys at Porsche...
Enjoy
FW
Looking back, I still much prefer the 964 for it's feel. Ultimately the 964 does not have the same level of adhesion thru' the twisty bits as the 993, and when it finally lets go (on oversteer) it's predictable, safe and fun. Powered 4WD drifts and side-sliding the rear wheels to thru' a bend balanced by the accelerator are relatively easy. Body roll & suspension travel seemed tighter, and more hard edge than the 993/M03.
The 964 4WD system tho' 'agricultural' (when compared to the smoothness of delivery of the industry standard 993 system) was, from a handling viewpoint, far more sophisticated. You actually 'feel' the front end pull the rear out of trouble when it's been overcooked.
But, time served with the 993 is slowly winning me over. Truth is, the 993 is actually covering the same roads at higher speeds (I reckon, 15-20% quicker). As a result there are far less opportunities to experience the car getting unstuck, but when it does, it bites, and you have to be quick to catch the rear end - which the simpler/dumbed down 993 4WD system does not tame as effectively as the 964's.
Many on this site consider the 993 the last & greatest 911; I believe, the greatest 911 was the 964. Once you step into a 993 you've already been 'softened-up' to lose you soul for the 996! Ahhhhhhh those clever marketing boys at Porsche...
Enjoy
FW
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Abe Froman (05-24-2024)
12-19-2002, 08:15 AM
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Mein 14
I own my 993 C4 for 2 years now and IMHO that has very noticable understeer in stock ROW set-up. I am in the process of deciding on upgraded suspension and wheels/tyres to improve on that. IMHO, tuning the suspension/wheels/tyres as a package should achieve decent neutral behaviour for normal street driving in both cars.
I also had a long test drive in a 964 C4 back when I was looking for my car. Arguably not much seat time by comparison, but at the time it didn't strike me as much different in the understeer department.
But the AWD systems are completely different for these cars, distribution of drive to the front wheels will be different. The Viscous coupling used in the 993 strikes me as inherently smooth compared to the computer controlled multiplate clutch set-up in the 964. Several publications point out that the 964 drive train technology is superior (but heavier) compared to the the 993. OTOH the 993 has the revised "LSA" rear suspension that is generally considered a real step change (forward) in the 911 evolution.
These factors should make the driving dynamics of the two cars distinctly different. Maybe if I get back in a 964 with my current experience I would feel more of those differences. Similarly spec'd cars give a wide variation in subjective driving impressions though. The behaviour will be different from car to car depending on condition/set-up/tyres etc. But also what is perfectly acceptable "near" neutral for driver A will get a strong negative comment re. understeer from driver B.
A bit of a rant, I know, but this understeer is really on my mind right now.
Enjoy <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
Nol
Edit: my post is really complementary to FW's post above, hadn't read that when I was typing mine NH.
I own my 993 C4 for 2 years now and IMHO that has very noticable understeer in stock ROW set-up. I am in the process of deciding on upgraded suspension and wheels/tyres to improve on that. IMHO, tuning the suspension/wheels/tyres as a package should achieve decent neutral behaviour for normal street driving in both cars.
I also had a long test drive in a 964 C4 back when I was looking for my car. Arguably not much seat time by comparison, but at the time it didn't strike me as much different in the understeer department.
But the AWD systems are completely different for these cars, distribution of drive to the front wheels will be different. The Viscous coupling used in the 993 strikes me as inherently smooth compared to the computer controlled multiplate clutch set-up in the 964. Several publications point out that the 964 drive train technology is superior (but heavier) compared to the the 993. OTOH the 993 has the revised "LSA" rear suspension that is generally considered a real step change (forward) in the 911 evolution.
These factors should make the driving dynamics of the two cars distinctly different. Maybe if I get back in a 964 with my current experience I would feel more of those differences. Similarly spec'd cars give a wide variation in subjective driving impressions though. The behaviour will be different from car to car depending on condition/set-up/tyres etc. But also what is perfectly acceptable "near" neutral for driver A will get a strong negative comment re. understeer from driver B.
A bit of a rant, I know, but this understeer is really on my mind right now.
Enjoy <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
Nol
Edit: my post is really complementary to FW's post above, hadn't read that when I was typing mine NH.
12-19-2002, 09:23 AM
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Ived owned and driven both AWD models for a number of years. The 964 is more a true 911 in car and road feel and engine noise. The 993 sails along far smoother, quieter and seems to understeer a bit less. 964 feels a bit heavier in the front end. But the 993C4S feels heavier in the front than the comparable CS model. I loved my 964 and would probably still have it but the engine was a dog and allegedly needed a ring job at 40K miles. On the other hand, I'm in lust with the phenotype of this 993 C4S. Cant have everything in one suit. They are both great cars. If I found a 964 C4 widebody, I wouldnt hesitate to add it to the barn. 
