JIC Cross Coilovers
02-17-2004, 12:20 PM
#18
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Originally posted by Agro1
and the PSS9's are also too stiff
and the PSS9's are also too stiff
Although some have reported that PSS-9's set on 9 (soft) are stiffer than stock, I found that setting to be incredibly compliant and devoid of harshness. Actually, it seemed too soft, even for the street.
02-17-2004, 12:23 PM
#19
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Originally posted by viperbob
Today's technologies on monoball (spherical bearings really) setups specifically for the rear and front shock mounts are not quite the same as even a few years ago. Between the better machining capabilities, and the newer coatings the life span of a monoball is not an issue. They have become common place, and require zero maintenance. If you just leave them alone and do not oil them as they are designed to be dry, they will last as long as your car. I have been running monoballs for years on every Porsche street car I own. This included driving in snow, rain, and poor road conditions. Never once has one of these failed, or worn out . Also remember, the harshness of the suspension is also directly realted to the quality of your dampers.
Today's technologies on monoball (spherical bearings really) setups specifically for the rear and front shock mounts are not quite the same as even a few years ago. Between the better machining capabilities, and the newer coatings the life span of a monoball is not an issue. They have become common place, and require zero maintenance. If you just leave them alone and do not oil them as they are designed to be dry, they will last as long as your car. I have been running monoballs for years on every Porsche street car I own. This included driving in snow, rain, and poor road conditions. Never once has one of these failed, or worn out . Also remember, the harshness of the suspension is also directly realted to the quality of your dampers.
I ended up replacing my front monoball top mount inserts after 24,000 miles as they had developed some play which caused them to knock under some conditions. They were PTFE-lined of course, the mounts are the FVD versions. Replacement inserts were easy to get hold off (National NSSB16V or equivalents from Rose or NMB, stainless, PTFE lined, 1" ID, 1.75" OD, std angle).
02-17-2004, 12:36 PM
#20
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Thanks Mark. One of the members close to me did give me a ride in his PSS9 equiped car, and I did like the setup, vey much indeed. I do agree the softest setting on the PSS9's is fine for everyday use, however I just wanted to get some feedback as to what options are available (besides stock and PSS9's). Thanks again.
02-17-2004, 03:52 PM
#21
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Agro,
Sorry if I offended you with a little humor. You will find that sometimes on the softer settings, the PSS9s actually feel a little harsher than the stiffer settings. This is due to the damper not be able to fully control the oscillation of the spring. Click it a notch or 2 above full soft, and the ride actually feels a little better.
There is a number of items to choose from for refreshing the suspension. In dampers you have outside of PSS9s you have stock / M030 stock / Bilstein HD and depending upon your intended DE / autocross /racing activities then JIC / JRZ / Moton/ Ohlins.. You also then have an array of springs to choose from. For the stock, M030 stock or Bilstein HD you can use your existing springs, go to US M030 springs (stiffer), go to M030 ROW spring (stiffer an lower), and then you could also install H&R springs (again lower and stiffer).
I just depends upon what your level of ride requirement is, if you want to lower the car, and what you want to spend.. You are doing the right thing in taking rides with people that have setups that you are thinking of buying. It is difficult to tell someone how stiff or compliant some suspension is over the internet.
good luck
Sorry if I offended you with a little humor. You will find that sometimes on the softer settings, the PSS9s actually feel a little harsher than the stiffer settings. This is due to the damper not be able to fully control the oscillation of the spring. Click it a notch or 2 above full soft, and the ride actually feels a little better.
There is a number of items to choose from for refreshing the suspension. In dampers you have outside of PSS9s you have stock / M030 stock / Bilstein HD and depending upon your intended DE / autocross /racing activities then JIC / JRZ / Moton/ Ohlins.. You also then have an array of springs to choose from. For the stock, M030 stock or Bilstein HD you can use your existing springs, go to US M030 springs (stiffer), go to M030 ROW spring (stiffer an lower), and then you could also install H&R springs (again lower and stiffer).
I just depends upon what your level of ride requirement is, if you want to lower the car, and what you want to spend.. You are doing the right thing in taking rides with people that have setups that you are thinking of buying. It is difficult to tell someone how stiff or compliant some suspension is over the internet.
good luck
02-17-2004, 04:01 PM
#22
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Bob,
Don't you know this is a humor free zone! I mean the guy rode in a car with P-ss9's and said they were great but in another post in this thread he says they were too harsh. With as much experience as you have you should be able to decipher what exact suspension fits his needs.
Don't you know this is a humor free zone! I mean the guy rode in a car with P-ss9's and said they were great but in another post in this thread he says they were too harsh. With as much experience as you have you should be able to decipher what exact suspension fits his needs.
Last edited by Greg Fishman; 02-17-2004 at 05:00 PM.
02-17-2004, 04:58 PM
#23
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Yes Bob Humour free. Hopefully Greg and I can SWAY you from
doing this again. If you dont SUSPEND from it we may have to
BAR you from it all together. Its just SHOCKing that you would SPRING to
humour when this guy wanted you to diagnose his needs from 2 posts.
Man the TORSION is so thick in this thread you could cut it with a knife.
doing this again. If you dont SUSPEND from it we may have to
BAR you from it all together. Its just SHOCKing that you would SPRING to
humour when this guy wanted you to diagnose his needs from 2 posts.
Man the TORSION is so thick in this thread you could cut it with a knife.
02-17-2004, 05:19 PM
#24
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Greg - Yes, the PSS9's I experienced were great, but were also a bit harsh for everyday driving. I never contradicted myself as you suggest, nice try though. They were however set on the middle setting and I think as Bob suggested, if they were backed off a bit they'd be fine for the street. I do however have a problem paying over $3000 for a set of shocks that are not triple adjustable. I have a VARA race car that has a set of Bilsteins, custom valved, triple adjustable, nitrogen filled that did not cost anyting near the PSS9's. It's my feeling that Bilstein marks these things up for the Porsche crowd beacuse, for no other reason, they can...
Bob - thanks very much for the post. That was exactly the type of info I was looking for.
Bob - thanks very much for the post. That was exactly the type of info I was looking for.
02-17-2004, 05:50 PM
#25
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I don't know nuthin, but my experience is:
Bob set my Pss9 to 5 after install. I thought my fillings were going to come out on the ride home.
I reset them to 9 and I thought they were slightly firmer, but different, than my very worn out stock shocks. Still a little stiffer than I was expecting for around town.
I went to the track and set them at 5 and have kept them there. I lowered my street tire pressures to 34/38 from 36/40 and now I find the ride to be comfortable around town.
Either they broke in over the past 500 miles or I got used to them or the tire pressures affected the ride, or a combination of these things.
Greg H.
Bob set my Pss9 to 5 after install. I thought my fillings were going to come out on the ride home.
I reset them to 9 and I thought they were slightly firmer, but different, than my very worn out stock shocks. Still a little stiffer than I was expecting for around town.
I went to the track and set them at 5 and have kept them there. I lowered my street tire pressures to 34/38 from 36/40 and now I find the ride to be comfortable around town.
Either they broke in over the past 500 miles or I got used to them or the tire pressures affected the ride, or a combination of these things.
Greg H.
Last edited by Greg H.; 02-17-2004 at 07:53 PM.
02-17-2004, 06:39 PM
#26
RL Technical Advisor
I'd like to just jump in here a moment and address ride quality perceptions,....
Although these are completely subjective issues, there are several factors that make up what we all call; "Ride Quality". Each one, as well as in concert with the others, makes a big difference in what each of judge as acceptable-to-harsh.
1) Shock valving (each maker is VERY different)
2) Spring rates and configurations (single or main/tender)
3) Rubber mounts or monoballs
4) Swaybar diameters and settings
5) Tire pressures
6) Tire brand (SP-9000 to P-Zero to Race tires)
7) Local road conditions
All of these factors together as well as individually, comprise what we all consider to be good, and each person should (if possible) make a concerted effort to ride in car(s) equipped with the suspension system in question before spending any money.
I'd agree with Bob on this one; its virtually impossible to accurately address this via e-mail, a forum like these, or even over the phone. When in doubt. "less is more" and its better to err on the softer side unless one has a dedicated track or race car.
Just my opinion based on 30+ years at this stuff, but the novelty of a race-car type suspension setup for street use wears thin over time and this should be considered when making these important decisions.
Lastly,....The shop or vendor providing a performance suspension for you should be capable of selecting the correct setup for your application and if that is a coilover kit, matching springs & shocks is imperative for proper control with a good ride.
Although these are completely subjective issues, there are several factors that make up what we all call; "Ride Quality". Each one, as well as in concert with the others, makes a big difference in what each of judge as acceptable-to-harsh.
1) Shock valving (each maker is VERY different)
2) Spring rates and configurations (single or main/tender)
3) Rubber mounts or monoballs
4) Swaybar diameters and settings
5) Tire pressures
6) Tire brand (SP-9000 to P-Zero to Race tires)
7) Local road conditions
All of these factors together as well as individually, comprise what we all consider to be good, and each person should (if possible) make a concerted effort to ride in car(s) equipped with the suspension system in question before spending any money.
I'd agree with Bob on this one; its virtually impossible to accurately address this via e-mail, a forum like these, or even over the phone. When in doubt. "less is more" and its better to err on the softer side unless one has a dedicated track or race car.
Just my opinion based on 30+ years at this stuff, but the novelty of a race-car type suspension setup for street use wears thin over time and this should be considered when making these important decisions.
Lastly,....The shop or vendor providing a performance suspension for you should be capable of selecting the correct setup for your application and if that is a coilover kit, matching springs & shocks is imperative for proper control with a good ride.
02-17-2004, 07:46 PM
#27
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Originally posted by Agro1
...It's my feeling that Bilstein marks these things up for the Porsche crowd beacuse, for no other reason, they can...
...It's my feeling that Bilstein marks these things up for the Porsche crowd beacuse, for no other reason, they can...
Oh, and don't forget the Number 1 Supreme Rule of Marketing: NEVER price product based on your cost; price it based on what the customer is willing to pay.
02-17-2004, 09:00 PM
#28
RL Technical Advisor
Eric,....Agro:
I will not defend the marketing practices of some companies and corporations; some of these border on reprehensible, but one should understand reality here,.....
In many cases, Porsche parts; OEM or aftermarket market are manufactured in much smaller quantities than other items for different marques and the final costs reflect the total quantity made.
To someone who is not engaged nor experienced in manufacturing, this looks to all the World as unethical practices but nothing could be further than the truth. Its simply the fact & reality of making something for "large and small audiences".
I will not defend the marketing practices of some companies and corporations; some of these border on reprehensible, but one should understand reality here,.....
In many cases, Porsche parts; OEM or aftermarket market are manufactured in much smaller quantities than other items for different marques and the final costs reflect the total quantity made.
To someone who is not engaged nor experienced in manufacturing, this looks to all the World as unethical practices but nothing could be further than the truth. Its simply the fact & reality of making something for "large and small audiences".
