Sputnik

officemanager,

How you going to fit into the doors UTOPIA 165W3 3-Way Components speakers which are :
1. 6.5" woofer in place of 5.25" hifi factory woofer
2. 5.75" midrange in place of 3.5" factory midrange
3. 1" Utopia tweeter fits I suppose nicely into 1" hifi tweeter's hole.

What about the speakers depth? Do the Utopia speakers fit into the doors "depth wise"?

Sputnik

I just checked the documentation on Utopia. The tweeter size of Utopia Speaker system is twice as large as hifi factoy one.
The factory tweeter is 1" inch against 2" inches Utopia one.
In short..The all three speakers of Utopia are larger then the factory ones (hifi option NOKIA).
If you know you will able to install Utopia speakers into the doors...will you able to use the factory speakers cover of woofer/midbass speakers? (as I understand there is not way you would able to use the 1" inch factory tweeter cover over the 2" utopia)

Bob 96 993 Cab

Having followed these Stereo upgrade threads for coming up of three years...the one issue I have not seen covered in the upgrade is that of either using the existing or replacing the cable/wiring connections buried under the carpet between all the components?

Whats the consenus of those who have upgraded?

Second opinion needed: I am currently literally studying texts involving stereo upgrades... The suggestion is that mounting the amp closer to the speakers/under the pas. seat offers slightly better performance. Opinions Please?

I am heavily leaning toward going with the "OfficeManagers" setup as he appears to be the key guru, behind audioinovations, inc. And most importantly the audio performance appears to match my desires...Jazz/Pop/Classical

TIA

<img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

John H. in DC Area

I'm still throwing ideas out ... I was browsing the Techart site and came accross these ...

<a href="http://www.techart.de/Techart_Katalog%20993_Englisch/Luggage_box.htm" target="_blank">Techart luggage/subwoofer box</a>

Looks interesting

Bob 96 993 Cab

I have searched the archives to no avail...

Who can provide the bolt circle dia. and depth of the original 993 HI FI speaker dimensions? Also for the 993 cab rear speaker which uses what appears a approx. 4" dia speaker.

TIA

Bob 993 Cab

officemanager

To DrZ... and a little bit at the end to everyone else following this thread...

Nice plan...

As you can see from my original post I gave serious thought to Dyn 360's in the end I'm hoping to squeeze the proverbial 3 lbs of Focal into the proverbial 2lb Nokia HiFi Box. I'll let you know next week when they get here if it works out... When I was done talking to every HiFi junkie I knew and the number of people I know with Tube Amps in their cars is alarmingly high... everyone agreed neck in neck on Dyn vs. Focal with pretty much everyone else varyingly in the also ran category. Also consensus is Focal is a little sweeter in the tweeter and Dyn's smoother in the mid's both are very however are very musical.

As you know this whole post, from my perspective, is about are subs really necessary for full frequency response and if I suspect so where to put em [and what and where to put em if money's no object as a second question]. I really think the imagining, musicality issues are handled as a zillion other posters have pointed out with the Focal's and although not popular on this website I think with Dyn's equally well and with good amplification.

The Illusion sub install is as listed on Monney.com is an 8" except Illusion doesn't make an 8" sub... <a href="http://www.illusionaudio.com/illusion/Driversx.html" target="_blank">http://www.illusionaudio.com/illusion/Driversx.html</a> Illusions makes as DrZ points out and 8" mid bass only their subs start at 10" which they make in the better Carbon <a href="http://www.illusionaudio.com/illusion/Technologyx.html" target="_blank">http://www.illusionaudio.com/illusion/Technologyx.html</a> [note the 8" is sold in pairs and has a frequency response listed as 30-2500 instead of the 20-900 of the 10nb Sub. Also note the more respectable 18-250 of the 15" sub] and all get middling reviews <a href="http://www.illusionaudio.com/illusion/ND8reviewpg1x.html." target="_blank">http://www.illusionaudio.com/illusion/ND8reviewpg1x.html.</a> The 10" with it's .8 cubic foot cab requirement and 3" mounting depth is intriguing but I don't think it's in the realm of the rest of your equipment certainly not your Dyn's. I think it more matches the Aura Bass Shakers Monney put in a 993 cabriolet instead of a subwoofer, not exactly the "high end install" we're talkin' here... All that said Audioinovations, Inc who everyone on this site clearly respects believes in Illusions and although I agree with DrZ that a sub more in plane with the rest of the speakers would be great even with the age old admonition that sub is omni directional... I haven't heard em. BUT THE 10" IN THE FRONT PASSENGER IS INTERESTING.

I ask everyone again to think about 4 Focal 5ws... The question is still where we put em... AND MY CAR IS A CAB NOT A COUPE SO REMEMBER I'M DANCING TO A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT DRUMMER THAN MY BETTERS IN THE COUPE WORLD. I'm still thinking 5ws in the rear section of the door [which of course costs the storage, breaks with the constraint of don't customize what you can't restore even though at that point it's time to just take out and save factory door panel and make a custom one for the speakers and even though my fabricator here in NY is quoting me 250-350 a door with matching Porsche Leather IT AIN'T CHEAP... AND GIVES ME SUBS FIRING INTO MY LEFT SIDE... We are measuring today to see if the rear side panels [with the 4" in em could be recast to accommodate 2 5ws each... but that solution has the same drawbacks as above and I'm still not convinced in a Cab it's enough output especially from a sealed box.

Lastly I'm still thinking the right solution is to 6 channel the Focals to get the most and clearest bass... and if a sub is necessary build a really high quality removable sub enclosure, molded to the rear driver side seat that could jack out, remove easily and fit in the truck with say a single Focal 27ws [11"]. How often do I need that seat and if it had a flat top I could put crude on it...

As to the amp install I'm not sure you'll have quite the head room you want... I ran Focal 180's [their 7inch 2way] with the very under rated Phoenix Ti 500 and it was just cutting it at [250 per] and I'm betting the Dyn's need a rat's *** more... I don't know the Brax but the reviews have it with a little bit [400 v 500] less power than the Ti500. My Mark Levenson 23 is rated at 100 wts and we all know in reality it's about 8 Carver 500wt Amps but think about that power issue as nothing gives clarity like headroom... Also I never like strapping one side of a 4 channel amp, which these days is probably just paranoia, if the Brax [nice review at <a href="http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/Brax_X2400.html]" target="_blank">http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/Brax_X2400.html]</a> has both sides sharing nothing but a case then ignore me... But I'm always in favor of running subs/base in one amp and highs/mid in another just because of the different current handling characteristics [let's not even talk Aux Capacitors here]... Why not try no sub to start with the Dyn's Bi-amped

Lastly I also get your point about no bells and whistles in the head unit... my nthousand dollars of playback at home don't have a bass or treble control anywhere... But having said that Alpine's expander feature makes [my dead father just turned in his grave - He was flat-line tri-amped through 8 mono Mac 75's in the late 50's] MP3's sound great... And yes, before the post comes in later, I know what I'm listening to isn't the staging and image that went into original mic's but it sounds great and you know at 200 tracks a disc x 6 discs in my changer that's a lot of music I get to fall back on when I get bored with the CD I left home with in the changer.... AND IT'S ONLY $549.00 FOR THE ALPINE how much is the NAK... What I'm saying apart from the Alpines clarity is if you don't like the whistles DON'T BLOW EM.

ANYWAY FINALLY DOES EVERYONE THINK I'M AN *** FOR THE REMOVABLE/REAR SEAT/QUALITY SUB IDEA... Frankly I would love to find an elegant slightly higher end solution to a permanent sub install beyond Audioinovations [rear seat sacrifice] or the 8" Illusions [which henceforth sale be known as the Boxster solution] but the truth is for the 993 there may not be one for reasonable dollars. I think the 10" in front deserves another hearing... and I'm thinking about where to cram entirely to much R&D money and 4 Focal 5ws... But before I rush headlong throwing drivers and money into the sub issue next week... I'm asking again doesn't the removable rear into truck sub concept work... The quality of the driver and box optimization are only limited by what would fit in the truck easily... there's no way the output wouldn't be clearer and lower and of higher amplitude from a good 11,12 or 15" all of which I think is going to matter a lot top down, volume up in the cabriolet... and LETS NOT UNDER RATE THE FACT IT'S THE CHEAP[er] or maybe [est] solution and restorable easily at sale. Now as a general rule I'm always unhappy later from being cheap up front [my divorce speaks volumes to that] but SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHETHER THIS IS AT LEAST WORTH A THOUGHT...

DrZ

Some things to consider regarding a system upgrade include correct installation of speakers. Cancellation of rear directed soundwaves and damping of the metallic door surfaces will make a profound difference in the quality of the sound regardless of the speaker. Due to the poor inherent acoustic characteristics of the car, imaging and equalization is also important. Generally it pays to have more power from a high quality amp to get the best out of relatively inefficient drivers. I am considering the elite examples such as Brax, Mcintosh, Sinfoni, because mounting will be in the trunk and the original Nokia will stay under the seat. The amp will be easily removed when it is time to part with the car. Dyns need atleast 100-200 RMS
watts to optimize their musical potential. The Focals are somewhat "brighter" sounding and may get by with less. I don't believe there is a hi-end amp that wound fit under the seat, and besides cooling and security issues should also be considered. I would not be concerned regarding cable lengtb unless you are using cheap RCA ones.

I am still interested in checking out the low profile 8 and 10 inch drivers made by Illusion Audio. Check out Monney.com to see one installed in the front footwell of a Boxster. Imaging should be very nice. Finally, I would not waste money, power and 2 channels on the rear 4" speakers. Provided you have created an incredible front soundstage, rear fill would be unnecessary. The area in the cab for these speaker is small, unenclosed and unlikely to add Hi-Fi sound even if you put Focal coaxs there. An exception might be to use the HU unit's low power amp for this purpose, but the HU models that I am considering have only low level outputs(like a home componet system). Anyone know of a master installer in Orange County? I have met with Eric at Speakerworks who appears knowledgeable but I didn't necessarily agree with some of his component recommendations.

DrZ

Good discussion OM. I have heard that unlike the W165, the W3 cannot be Bi-amp without customizing the x-over. I like your suggestion regarding bi-amping the Dyns. With a 4 channel there is lots of flex. As you say I could add a separate amp later for the SW or bridge the original one.

I will check out the Illusion 10. I am looking for a plug,play and walk away solution but your point about the removeable rear enclosure is perhaps the best approach for absolute SQ. Isn't it bad enough to have to deal with boot? I guess I am just lazy.

The Nak goes for $1200, yeah a lot of dough but audiophile standards and built like a tank. Alpine has the motorized face plate just waiting to malfxn and is probabaly assembled in some 4th world jungle. Another consideration is the rock solid Mcintosh mx406 which can be had for $810 delivered at audioexchange.com. I think that there might be audible sound diffs between these HUs and the Alpine nonwithstanding the build quality issue.

officemanager

DrZ
How often do you use that back seat... Tell the truth... it's good for kids and skinny girls and if you've got two skinny girls you're just being greedy...

Anyway I'm gonna let the 6 channel amp's crossovers do the work on the Focal 165w3 no passives at all and us my 500.4ti strapped for whatever sub arrangement next week settles down to...

I'm serious about the removable unit... nobody has made any comments on the 5ws in the doors but I can think of a number of problems before we even get to that they just, after considerable expense, might not put out enough air... Also what do you think about them blowing into my hip on the left side and being 3 ft and probably a person away on the other... That leaves for the 5ws custom rear sides [now we really need skinny girls or I need my kids to get younger and smaller quick] or I'm left with that 10" Illusion install [the famous Boxster solution] where I'm worried the speaker name says it all...

Thoughts?

David in LA

OM or anyone else -

Any way you could squeeze at least two of the subs in an enclosure tucked up under the dash on the passenger side? I thought that at least on older 911s there was plenty space up there and a few people were able to put a sub in there.

DrZ

For those still following this, I have decided to go with the Dynaudio GT240 2 way components powered by a 200x2 Brax amp(Damn I got outbid on Ebay today on that one!)Amp will be mounted on top of the gas tank under carpet on a custom wood rack attached to the shock enclosures by silicon so no drilling into sheetmetal. Tweeter will not fit in stock space but driver will without expensive or irreversible alteration. 200 watts from a clean high current amp with the gain turned down will give great mid bass without distorting at higher volume. Since I am not going with SW, freq below 70hz will be cut with amp's CCC. I am not impressed with the "Boxster" SW solution, and Nd 10 will not fit w/o cutting metal. Agree with OM about mixing currents so will go with more power and headroom provided by the two channel amp. Bi-amping with lower power on a 2way I think is less attractive. I am hearing from various installers that a 3way will just NOT fit in the factory enclosures. The spacial relationship is poor anyway with the mid juxaposed to the woofer(might as well be a coax!)

Since I will have the power, I definately will go with Dyns over Focals to take advantage of the formers better mid bass characteristics. Focals with their brigthness may sound initialy impressive but the Dyns may be easier on the ears in the long run particularly if you listen to classical, jazz, blues and acoutic rock like I do.

Can't overemphasize the importance of correct installation using DynamatExtreme or some other dampening medium to seal your doors, high quality interconnects and speaker wire like Monster.

Finally I have the added flexibility of adding a custom dual 10" sub enclosure for the back seats powered by a separate low current class D amp like a JL later if I really miss the lows.

My primary objective is to keep the car stock looking, using high end EASILY removable components to create a very nice if less than perfect sound keeping in mind that the 993 is a sportscar first as opposed to a mobile sound studio. Although cost will be around 2.5k, I think this is still a reasonable expenditure considering that I will be able to keep it for later installs. Quality should never go out of style, but the final verdict willdepend on how the system ultimately sounds once IN the car. I will keep you posted.

Sputnik

Does anyone really know if Focal Utopia speakers are going to fit into the 993 doors "depth wise"?

The mounting depth of Focal Utopia 165 W3 speakers is 78 mm.

The same mounting depth is being shared among Focal Polykevlar 165K2 and 165K3 models.
The only speakers from Focal which have a shorter moutning depth is Focal Polykevlar 165 model. Their mounting depth is 69 mm. And I was told that this particular model (Focal Polykevlar 165 with 69mm mounting depth) DOES FIT into the 993 door. But what about 78 mm moutning depth ( I believe 78 mm is about half of inch)

Thanks!

John H. in DC Area

I have focal polyglass 165's in my doors and they fit just fine.

officemanager

I think DrZ has hit the nail squarely on the head… The Dyn’s are just great speakers and may in fact be a little easier on the ears than the Focals [You know… the ones that I have in fed ex’s hands on their way to me today so I’m not going to think this way too long]… anyway overall I think his suggestions and his solutions are as good as it’s going to get especially at the 2.5k budget [especially since I don’t think another 10k would get you much more]… I’m fine with a 2 way vs. 3 way solution, it’s what in my coupe but I will share and interesting point on the “Nokia radial array” being inferior to the plain door position… As DrZ said it’s not a recording studio with wheels but parenthetically yesterday I was driving to a job with a former recording engineer in the passenger seat to teach a client to work his JM Lab [Focal] Speakered in wall Home Theatre System we’d just installed and we were discussing, of course, subs for my car… blah blah blah… and I had just read someone’s post here about the audio “hole” in the middle and I turned to Leho and said is there a hole in the imaging here… people are talking about this vehicle needing a center speaker and he just laughed.

Now I’ve never done any critical listening to the vanilla factory system… 10 seconds told me it was going and it was out that day and to add even less ability to comment intelligently, the 7” Focal [180w] 2 ways in my 964 Coupe are in a custom enclosure that is, like the Nokia HiFi package, slightly sphered [and unlike the Nokia heavily reinforced and sound deadened internally] with the tweeters not high on the doors but little lowered and the woofer not flat and in the factory, blocked by the magazine rack position either [if my digital camera wasn’t in Long Island at my frozen house with my crew foreman thawing pipes I’d add a pic… Next week I promise].

Let me say also that I am obsessed with imaging and sound stage. The reason my [Dyn driver'd] Duntech sovereigns are down on my kids floor and the 6 panel Tympani 4’s are taking up the middle of my Living Rm and requiring 5 ½ horsepower worth of stupidly expensive amps to push em and I’ve had to rebuild my no longer made Intec subwoofers is that I with my eyes closed I want, when that little man hits that triangle in the back of the orchestra I want to “see” him there. I want to “feel” Sonny Rollins rising tall in a small quartet when he stands to solo and I want, in my minds eye, to watch Omar Hakim’s sticks traverse one side of his drum kit to the other splash cymbal on stage left ride on the right. That is to me an integral part of the music experience… And I don’t know about the factory locations but I KNOW THAT BOTH OF MY SPEAKERS CONFIGURATIONS IN BOTH CARS, AS INSTALLED NOW, ARE DOING THAT BEAUTIFULLY WITHOUT ANYTHING RESEMBELING HOLE…

My suspicion is those with a “hole” may have something as simple as phasing problems in their speakers [check the leads] or maybe with the speakers peaking out from behind magazine racks, pointing at each other like cannons from two parallel surfaces they just cancel each other out a bit… I’m not a sound engineer… But then again I’m not an orthopedist either but I can work my knees well enough to get to the liquor store. My two cents is, interestingly, in contrast to DrZ’s well taken and logistically correct point about the Nokia design, IS THAT RIGHT NOW… WITH THE MB QUARTs IN THE NOKIA HIFI ARRAY THE SAME AMPS AND HEAD UNIT AND SAME SIGNAL SOURCE IN BOTH CARS THE 3 WAY’S IN NOKIA ARRAY HAVE SLIGHTLY BETTER IMAGINING THAN EVEN MY 2 WAYS. Let me be clear, all I’m taking about is soundstage. The audio characteristics of the Focal 2-ways in the Coupe are superior to the Quarts in the HiFi array in the Cabriolet. Better low/mid bass response [in Coupe with subs off] and much more “musicality” in the coupe [I’ve got listener fatigue after 30 minutes with the Quarts]. My prayer is of course that the frequency response issues are solely from the speakers not the positioning or the Coupe vs. Cabriolet acoustic considerations but I’ll be able to report better by next weekend when I’ve swapped the drivers and had some time to drive around and listen. ALL I’M SAYING “NOBODY KNOW’S HOW MANY HOLES IT TAKES TO FILL THE ALBERT HALL”… BUT THERE DON’T NEED TO BE ANY IN YOUR 993.

DrZ

I don't want to sound like a real estate agent but the three most important things to consider regarding car audio is the installation, installation, and installation. Even putting in reference Focals or Rainbows would sound like crap if not properly sealed, directed and equalized. OM points about the Nokia 3way array nonwithstanding, I doubt that this factory setup provides the best placement of a 3 way, and justifies the additional expense and hassle of trying to get them to sound right i.e., bi-amping and external equalization etc. Call me a minimalist, but why not get the best out of a very competent 2way system properly installed and spend your money on home stereo upgrades that don't require irreversible(and depreciative)alterations on an acoustically challenged Cab.

Hope this is not taken as a slam to OM, because his ideas and knownlege about this topic are very much appreciated, hence the 40 plus posts. I may just have a different objective and budget. Good luck to all.