Need advice - $45k - $55k Budget
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 131
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From: The Venice of America
Need advice - $45k - $55k Budget
Hey knowledgeable P-Car heads,
Here's my current situation. I own a 1996 Honda Civic EX (my daily driver to work) and I will have my 2000 BMW 323ci convertible paid off in the not too distant future. I already have a convertible (a heavy and fairly slow one) and I'm somewhat into modding my car - 1, for increased performance - 2, for the personal touch - 3, to stand out from the crowd.
No offense to the Boxster guys, but I don't want a Boxster. I test drove a non-S when I was shopping for my convertible and I really loved it, but I can't get over the rear end, no offense to anyone. It's a wonderful car to drive and I can only imagine what an S or a Boxster with an engine swap (Ruf 3400/3600 S perhaps) would be like.
I love the 993 body style, it's my absolute favorite. I realize I can't afford a 993 Turbo (my favorite) but I was thinking of a 993 C4S. Around 300hp, the turbo body, brakes, wheels, et cetera. Perhaps an increased longevity since it's normally aspirated?
Would I be better off with a 964 Turbo? (although doesn't the 993 fix some of the 964's suspension shortcomings)?
My intentions for this car are weekend driver, several AutoX and track events a year. Nothing hard core, but I definitely plan on increasing my driving skill in the car. I also plan on doing a few mods to it just to set it apart.
I've been lurking for awhile, and I have searched beyond belief. I've spent many hours reading and I would like some feedback from some of the more knowledgeable.
I'm guessing the cars I'm looking at are out of warranty, too?
My brain is full of Bimmer knowledge, but I can use some help with this Porsche decision.
Thanks in advance. By the way, I want to be able to hang (preferabbly beat) my E46 M3 friends.
Here's my current situation. I own a 1996 Honda Civic EX (my daily driver to work) and I will have my 2000 BMW 323ci convertible paid off in the not too distant future. I already have a convertible (a heavy and fairly slow one) and I'm somewhat into modding my car - 1, for increased performance - 2, for the personal touch - 3, to stand out from the crowd.
No offense to the Boxster guys, but I don't want a Boxster. I test drove a non-S when I was shopping for my convertible and I really loved it, but I can't get over the rear end, no offense to anyone. It's a wonderful car to drive and I can only imagine what an S or a Boxster with an engine swap (Ruf 3400/3600 S perhaps) would be like.
I love the 993 body style, it's my absolute favorite. I realize I can't afford a 993 Turbo (my favorite) but I was thinking of a 993 C4S. Around 300hp, the turbo body, brakes, wheels, et cetera. Perhaps an increased longevity since it's normally aspirated?
Would I be better off with a 964 Turbo? (although doesn't the 993 fix some of the 964's suspension shortcomings)?
My intentions for this car are weekend driver, several AutoX and track events a year. Nothing hard core, but I definitely plan on increasing my driving skill in the car. I also plan on doing a few mods to it just to set it apart.
I've been lurking for awhile, and I have searched beyond belief. I've spent many hours reading and I would like some feedback from some of the more knowledgeable.
I'm guessing the cars I'm looking at are out of warranty, too?
My brain is full of Bimmer knowledge, but I can use some help with this Porsche decision.
Thanks in advance. By the way, I want to be able to hang (preferabbly beat) my E46 M3 friends.
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
From: Frisco, Texas
optimo,
never fear, the glorious experiences of rennlisters will save you. I too was a 45-55 shopper, and this is my advice:
the first thing you have to do is find the exact model you want. When you narrow the search your focus will be directed much stronger.
At first, I was all over the place (993, 993 S, 996, 964 Turbo, 993 C4S, new 986 S,), I had no anchor. Now, shopping only for a 993S, I find cars routinely. If you want a certain color, DO NOT compromise. You'll be pissed in two months.
Also, an M3 will be faster 0-60 than a 993 with no mods-this is due mostly to gear ratio, since the 993 will outlap it on most tracks.
I enjoyed the hunt immensely, you should too.
Don't forget, model to model, these cars are on differing scales regarding both depreciation and maintenance, so don't forget to search the archives on related information.
Lastly, PPI!
never fear, the glorious experiences of rennlisters will save you. I too was a 45-55 shopper, and this is my advice:
the first thing you have to do is find the exact model you want. When you narrow the search your focus will be directed much stronger.
At first, I was all over the place (993, 993 S, 996, 964 Turbo, 993 C4S, new 986 S,), I had no anchor. Now, shopping only for a 993S, I find cars routinely. If you want a certain color, DO NOT compromise. You'll be pissed in two months.
Also, an M3 will be faster 0-60 than a 993 with no mods-this is due mostly to gear ratio, since the 993 will outlap it on most tracks.
I enjoyed the hunt immensely, you should too.
Don't forget, model to model, these cars are on differing scales regarding both depreciation and maintenance, so don't forget to search the archives on related information.
Lastly, PPI!
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,276
Likes: 0
From: SF Bay Area
Optimo - I am aware of a 993TT for sale in Colorado that has 67K on the odometer and the owner is willing to let it go for 55K. It is a nicely optioned car and I believe the owner has recently corrected all of the little maintenance problems, including repairing one of the turbos.
In any event, it seems like a sweet deal. You can view it here: <a href="http://66.28.54.241/turbo.htm" target="_blank">http://66.28.54.241/turbo.htm</a>
I have no affiliation, just happen to know of the car through these boards and some e-mail contacts with the owner (who seems like a good knowledgeable P-car owner).
In any event, it seems like a sweet deal. You can view it here: <a href="http://66.28.54.241/turbo.htm" target="_blank">http://66.28.54.241/turbo.htm</a>
I have no affiliation, just happen to know of the car through these boards and some e-mail contacts with the owner (who seems like a good knowledgeable P-car owner).
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,673
Likes: 994
From: Gaithersburg, MD.
You are in the right place! I was where you were months ago... I finally settled on a C4S after flip flopping back and forth like a fish stuck on the beach. When I realized that ALL I really wanted was a silver with black interior 96-97 C4S, life changed, the air grew sweeter, the clouds cleared, and ads just got pared down to what I really wanted. I went from 993 Targa, to cheap 993 Turbo, to 996 (ughhh - almost bought one because I wasn't FOCUSED).
I found a couple silver w/black interiored C4S, did 2 PPI's, and bought the 2nd one I looked at. A 96 C4S for $40500 with 59k miles. Yeah, I did spend $4700 extra for a new clutch, tires, front brakes and some other small stuff before I drove it the 701 miles home from Chicago. You don't need to worry about higher miles if it's been well maintained. You can save alot of money by buying a higher mileage specimen, too! Just take a look at the cars, get your PPI's done, and trust your gut. I did and am quite happy, with a lot of money left over for any repairs, from my $55000 original budget.
Good luck. Cars.com and Rennlist classifieds is a good place to start.
Steve <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I found a couple silver w/black interiored C4S, did 2 PPI's, and bought the 2nd one I looked at. A 96 C4S for $40500 with 59k miles. Yeah, I did spend $4700 extra for a new clutch, tires, front brakes and some other small stuff before I drove it the 701 miles home from Chicago. You don't need to worry about higher miles if it's been well maintained. You can save alot of money by buying a higher mileage specimen, too! Just take a look at the cars, get your PPI's done, and trust your gut. I did and am quite happy, with a lot of money left over for any repairs, from my $55000 original budget.
Good luck. Cars.com and Rennlist classifieds is a good place to start.
Steve <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
From: The Venice of America
Thanks for the feedback guys...my Bimmer is TiSilver w/black leather interior so I plan on keeping with the same color scheme. After all, Silver is a German racing color. (Although Speed Yellow is a bit tempting).
Stever, how do you like the C4S? I'm sure you love it but did you test drive a 993TT at all? I'm curious if I should just wait until I have more money and get exactly what I want - but then again, since I plan on buying a condo soon maybe the extra maintenance associated with a turbo (all my Supra and Rotary friends have this complaint) will be more than I can handle. My insurance has quoted me with about a $100 increase a month for added a 993T to my policy with full covereage (24 year old male, single, 1 speeding ticket)
I'm not concerned with 0-60 (ok, maybe a little), and definitely not quarter mile. I want something that will out handle an E46 M3. I personally love the E30 and E36 M3 but I've always wanted a 993. Besides I can't get an Alpina over here anyway (E34 B10 Biturbo anyone?).
I appreciate the feedback, and I definitely considering the 993 C4S. I'll have to do my research on specs and difference in model years. I definitely plan on having some kind of sweet rear wing, so it at least reminds me of a Turbo if I decide on the C4S instead. I've never sat in one either so I can't comment on the seats/wheel design.
At this point I know the following:
Color: Silver/Black (unless anyone else has a great suggestion for interior color).
MANUAL TRANSMISSION
Moderate mileage, not too low, but not crazy high
Litronic headlights <a href="http://www.dspots.com/bmw/jason" target="_blank">http://www.dspots.com/bmw/jason</a>
I guess that's all for now. I suppose I need to get out there and test drive. Part of me regretted getting a lowly E46 M52TU (2.5litre engine) cabrio instead of an E36 M3 and I want this Porsche to be my last pimp car for awhile. I am definitely leaning towards a 993 C4S. Perhaps with the extra money I can do a few things to it, after all neither of my cars are stock. I just see the drawbacks when trying to tune my Bimmer since it's n/a.
Got any pictures Stever?
ZCat3 - That's a great link but unfortunately I'm doing my research at this point - the Bimmer still has a few more payments left in '03 and instead of paying it off now I'm trying to find a place in Arlington/Falls Church.
What is the BEST overall performer in that price range? Keep in mind I'm 24 and I will have a lot of learning to do. My BMW only has about 200hp so I can't get into too much trouble.
Stever, how do you like the C4S? I'm sure you love it but did you test drive a 993TT at all? I'm curious if I should just wait until I have more money and get exactly what I want - but then again, since I plan on buying a condo soon maybe the extra maintenance associated with a turbo (all my Supra and Rotary friends have this complaint) will be more than I can handle. My insurance has quoted me with about a $100 increase a month for added a 993T to my policy with full covereage (24 year old male, single, 1 speeding ticket)
I'm not concerned with 0-60 (ok, maybe a little), and definitely not quarter mile. I want something that will out handle an E46 M3. I personally love the E30 and E36 M3 but I've always wanted a 993. Besides I can't get an Alpina over here anyway (E34 B10 Biturbo anyone?).
I appreciate the feedback, and I definitely considering the 993 C4S. I'll have to do my research on specs and difference in model years. I definitely plan on having some kind of sweet rear wing, so it at least reminds me of a Turbo if I decide on the C4S instead. I've never sat in one either so I can't comment on the seats/wheel design.
At this point I know the following:
Color: Silver/Black (unless anyone else has a great suggestion for interior color).
MANUAL TRANSMISSION
Moderate mileage, not too low, but not crazy high
Litronic headlights <a href="http://www.dspots.com/bmw/jason" target="_blank">http://www.dspots.com/bmw/jason</a>
I guess that's all for now. I suppose I need to get out there and test drive. Part of me regretted getting a lowly E46 M52TU (2.5litre engine) cabrio instead of an E36 M3 and I want this Porsche to be my last pimp car for awhile. I am definitely leaning towards a 993 C4S. Perhaps with the extra money I can do a few things to it, after all neither of my cars are stock. I just see the drawbacks when trying to tune my Bimmer since it's n/a.
Got any pictures Stever?
ZCat3 - That's a great link but unfortunately I'm doing my research at this point - the Bimmer still has a few more payments left in '03 and instead of paying it off now I'm trying to find a place in Arlington/Falls Church.
What is the BEST overall performer in that price range? Keep in mind I'm 24 and I will have a lot of learning to do. My BMW only has about 200hp so I can't get into too much trouble.
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,727
Likes: 51
From: South Carolina
Optimo,
Are you in MA too?
I have both a 1998 C2S and a 2002 E46 M3 Coupe and would be happy to share any info with you that would help you to make an informed decision.
Feel free to ask here or email me if you prefer.
Are you in MA too?
I have both a 1998 C2S and a 2002 E46 M3 Coupe and would be happy to share any info with you that would help you to make an informed decision.
Feel free to ask here or email me if you prefer.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 13,054
Likes: 614
You need to drive the 993. I used to auto-x a 3-series before I bought mine. It is a completely different driving experience. You may not like it at all. An E46 M3 will outperform a 993 in a straight line and in the hands of most drivers, at the a track as well. (If it's engine doesn't fall apart first. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )
You will need to take the time to learn how to drive the 993, including the weird driving position, odd smells and noises, cramped cabin with tiny trunk, funky pedals and strange handling at the limit.
If you get through all that and you still love the car, then you will know which one is the real ultimate driving machine and which one just has some marketing dweeb that says it is.
Best of luck and welcome to Rennlist,
You will need to take the time to learn how to drive the 993, including the weird driving position, odd smells and noises, cramped cabin with tiny trunk, funky pedals and strange handling at the limit.
If you get through all that and you still love the car, then you will know which one is the real ultimate driving machine and which one just has some marketing dweeb that says it is.
Best of luck and welcome to Rennlist,
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Addict
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,727
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From: South Carolina
I agree with Peter.
It is 10 degrees out here right now and my 993 is in the garage with a cover over it and the heater is on.
The E46 M3 is outside with snow on it.
That should tell you everything you need to know.
It is 10 degrees out here right now and my 993 is in the garage with a cover over it and the heater is on.
The E46 M3 is outside with snow on it.
That should tell you everything you need to know.
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Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,673
Likes: 994
From: Gaithersburg, MD.
I don't have any pics yet of my car as I just had foot surgery on both feet and am out of commission for at least 2-3 weeks! Plus, my digital camera just broke (I only used it 4 times! stupid pin broke in the smart card) but I called to order a new Olympus today from my sickbed.
I didn't really consider the 993 turbo as I'm 41 and pretty conservative. The Turbo body is way too outrageous for me with that huge spoiler on it. I like the simpler lines of the C4S and I need 400HP to drive to work and back like a hole in the head.
Drive some cars! I thought I HAD to have litronic and other "must have options" too, till I found the perfect car - without them. You can always upgrade to litronic and sport seats if you find a car without the options you want. Drive, drive, drive a few to see what you like!
I doubt you'll end up getting what you think you want right now, today. Things will change the more you look.
Steve
I didn't really consider the 993 turbo as I'm 41 and pretty conservative. The Turbo body is way too outrageous for me with that huge spoiler on it. I like the simpler lines of the C4S and I need 400HP to drive to work and back like a hole in the head.
Drive some cars! I thought I HAD to have litronic and other "must have options" too, till I found the perfect car - without them. You can always upgrade to litronic and sport seats if you find a car without the options you want. Drive, drive, drive a few to see what you like!
I doubt you'll end up getting what you think you want right now, today. Things will change the more you look.
Steve
Racer
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 454
Likes: 1
From: Detroit, Michigan
Yes, as a matter of fact. It does sound familiar. I'm in pretty much the same boat you're in. I've narrowed my choices down to what I was originally looking for, (a 993 C4S-Speed Yello/Black) and a 2000 C4 Millennium Edition. Oh what to do...what to do...
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
From: Frisco, Texas
We should start a new discussion forum:
Soon to be 993 drivers with a 45-55k budget
Optimo, yellow, we should all be following SteveR's advice.
Optimo, As far as performance, that depends on the relative speeds. The narrowbody will eventually pull away from the wides, due to the drag of the extra few inches of butt cheek.
The C4S will probably brake better due to the turbo reds, and the 95 is the lightest weight and easiest to mod. IT GOES ON FOREVER!
Soon to be 993 drivers with a 45-55k budget
Optimo, yellow, we should all be following SteveR's advice.
Optimo, As far as performance, that depends on the relative speeds. The narrowbody will eventually pull away from the wides, due to the drag of the extra few inches of butt cheek.
The C4S will probably brake better due to the turbo reds, and the 95 is the lightest weight and easiest to mod. IT GOES ON FOREVER!
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
From: The Venice of America
DCfromCapeCod </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Are you in MA too?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Nope, I'm in VA right outside of DC. Although I do drive up to NY and RI every couple of months. That E46 M3 should not be snow covered - a lot of people would kill for that car. The problem is, they are a dime a dozen here in DC and the E46 body style is sweet, but I can't take my eyes off a 993.
PeterS </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">If you get through all that and you still love the car, then you will know which one is the real ultimate driving machine and which one just has some marketing dweeb that says it is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hey, some Bimmers are wonderful to drive. An E30 M3 is a lot of fun as is the E34 M5. I can only hope to pilot an M6 or 850csi someday. And yes, unfortunately the S54 isn't as reliable as many had hoped, although a lot has to do with the build date. I think BMW has addressed the issues - hopefully.
Stever </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I don't have any pics yet of my car as I just had foot surgery on both feet and am out of commission for at least 2-3 weeks!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hope you feel better man. Maybe you can get a helper monkey to clutch for you.
SocalCJ </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The C4S will probably brake better due to the turbo reds, and the 95 is the lightest weight and easiest to mod. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Great advice. I'll have to do a search and see what kind of performance mods I can do to the n/a engine and what kind of #s to expect. Maybe I'll start trying to find a couple to test drive even though the purchase will come later this year. I think you guys are right, I won't know until I drive both the C4S and a Turbo. Picking a 993 was the easy part.
By the way, here's what the eventual P-Car will be parked next to (the Honda sits outside in the cold for the birds to crap on):
<img src="http://www.evilmechanic.com/forum/uploads/post-7-1040960244.jpg" alt=" - " />
PeterS </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">If you get through all that and you still love the car, then you will know which one is the real ultimate driving machine and which one just has some marketing dweeb that says it is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hey, some Bimmers are wonderful to drive. An E30 M3 is a lot of fun as is the E34 M5. I can only hope to pilot an M6 or 850csi someday. And yes, unfortunately the S54 isn't as reliable as many had hoped, although a lot has to do with the build date. I think BMW has addressed the issues - hopefully.
Stever </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I don't have any pics yet of my car as I just had foot surgery on both feet and am out of commission for at least 2-3 weeks!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hope you feel better man. Maybe you can get a helper monkey to clutch for you.
SocalCJ </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The C4S will probably brake better due to the turbo reds, and the 95 is the lightest weight and easiest to mod. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Great advice. I'll have to do a search and see what kind of performance mods I can do to the n/a engine and what kind of #s to expect. Maybe I'll start trying to find a couple to test drive even though the purchase will come later this year. I think you guys are right, I won't know until I drive both the C4S and a Turbo. Picking a 993 was the easy part.
By the way, here's what the eventual P-Car will be parked next to (the Honda sits outside in the cold for the birds to crap on):
<img src="http://www.evilmechanic.com/forum/uploads/post-7-1040960244.jpg" alt=" - " />
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,727
Likes: 51
From: South Carolina
I would suggest that you look into a C2....or at least drive one. I could easily have bought a 993TT but I felt strongly about having a rear wheel drive sportscar. You give up nothing under 100MPH with the widebody and there is no difference in braking on the street between the regular Brembos and the Big Red's. Waiting on 400 HP until you have more experience with the car and that much power will give you something to grow into. Besides, didn't you say that you want to buy a house?