clutch options
11-05-2002, 10:10 AM
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clutch options
My clutch in my 96 C4s (@57K) needs to be changed (slipping at high RPM in 2nd- due to the previous owner's driving <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> ). I was wondering what options there are out there- a standard 993 cltuch, a TT clutch, RS clutch etc..? I have checked the archives and while there were numerous LWF change options, I could not find any clutch options. Can I put a TT clutch in a 4s? What else needs to be changed? Does anyone have any experience with a TT clutch in a regular 993? Any other options? Costs? In addition, I know there is debate about not pulling the engine out, assuming it doesn't have to come out, is there anything else I should be doing while the clutch is being changed? Any information is appreicated. TIA
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11-05-2002, 10:19 AM
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Eric:
Check out the following link for parts options:
<a href="http://www.carnewal.com" target="_blank">Carnewal</a>
This could be the right time to upgrade to the
lightweight flywheel as well. There have been
numerous threads about this topic, you might try
searching the archives.
Check out the following link for parts options:
<a href="http://www.carnewal.com" target="_blank">Carnewal</a>
This could be the right time to upgrade to the
lightweight flywheel as well. There have been
numerous threads about this topic, you might try
searching the archives.
11-05-2002, 10:21 AM
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Why would you want a TT clutch? What will it do that your original didn't? If you're not going to increase your engine torgue or HP, I don't see what a TT clutch would accomplish.
I would HIGHLY recommend a LWF / clutch kit. Now is the time to make this upgrade. You're in there to change the clutch disc and possibly pressure plate anyway, so you're only looking at the additional cost of the flywheel. You wouldn't want to go back later to make this change.
I bought everything from Gert for $1425 shipped to my house. Ordered on Monday, had the parts on Friday.
I would HIGHLY recommend a LWF / clutch kit. Now is the time to make this upgrade. You're in there to change the clutch disc and possibly pressure plate anyway, so you're only looking at the additional cost of the flywheel. You wouldn't want to go back later to make this change.
I bought everything from Gert for $1425 shipped to my house. Ordered on Monday, had the parts on Friday.
11-05-2002, 10:51 AM
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Eric,
If you decide to stay with the dual mass flywheel let me know, because I have a stock clutch plate, etc that came out of my race car before it was converted to track only. It has 13k miles on it and looks like new. I also have the flywheel if you need that.
Greg
If you decide to stay with the dual mass flywheel let me know, because I have a stock clutch plate, etc that came out of my race car before it was converted to track only. It has 13k miles on it and looks like new. I also have the flywheel if you need that.
Greg
11-05-2002, 11:24 AM
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Thanks guys. I think its a good point about keeping the stock clutch, but isn't a TT clutch better? If the cost isn't much difference (I have no idea) I just assume put a TT clutch in, as it would seem it would be an upgrade over stock.
I still am undecided about the flywheel. I have read the archives, but my concern remains that I drive my 4s mostly on the street with occasional DE's (still looking for a track car). I don't want the car stalling on me, and don't want to have to reprogram the computer or add weight to a the flywheel to keep it running. Can anyone give me a straight up answer on what the LWF will really do for me? What do I gain and is the cost really worth it?
(By the way, I just cleaned the ISV valve this past weekend- notice a big difference- thanks Robin and whoever else contributed to the diy)
Greg- please send me a email regarding the stock clutch/flywheel I may be interested (eisban@yahoo.com). Thanks.
E
I still am undecided about the flywheel. I have read the archives, but my concern remains that I drive my 4s mostly on the street with occasional DE's (still looking for a track car). I don't want the car stalling on me, and don't want to have to reprogram the computer or add weight to a the flywheel to keep it running. Can anyone give me a straight up answer on what the LWF will really do for me? What do I gain and is the cost really worth it?
(By the way, I just cleaned the ISV valve this past weekend- notice a big difference- thanks Robin and whoever else contributed to the diy)
Greg- please send me a email regarding the stock clutch/flywheel I may be interested (eisban@yahoo.com). Thanks.
E
11-05-2002, 11:49 AM
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Eric,
As I mentioned, I upgraded to the LWF while my transaxle was out for repair. I have had Zero, None, Nada, stalling issues with this flywheel. I think the only year with the problem was '95. Check the archives for LWF. The '96 and newer models have different engine sftware that accomodates the lighter flywheel. My car now idles smoother than before.
An explaination of what a LWF can do for you can be found at:
<a href="http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/mainmenu.htm" target="_blank">LWF Benefits</a>
Scroll down 'til you see Light Weight Flywheel.
From a layman's point of view, it free's up HP to be used to propel the car rather than storing it in a rotating mass. The car revs faster, accelerates faster. Downshifts only require a mere touch of the gas to match the revs for a lower gear. The only negative is a slight gear rattle noise when slowly pulling from below 2000 rpm in 2nd gear. If the radio is on, you won't even hear it. This noise or rattle is otherwise absorbed by the original dual mass flywheel.
Check p-car.com and read Viken's write-up on the LWF.
I know you would like the improvment for the added cost over a new replacement clutch only.
<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
Fred R.
As I mentioned, I upgraded to the LWF while my transaxle was out for repair. I have had Zero, None, Nada, stalling issues with this flywheel. I think the only year with the problem was '95. Check the archives for LWF. The '96 and newer models have different engine sftware that accomodates the lighter flywheel. My car now idles smoother than before.
An explaination of what a LWF can do for you can be found at:
<a href="http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/mainmenu.htm" target="_blank">LWF Benefits</a>
Scroll down 'til you see Light Weight Flywheel.
From a layman's point of view, it free's up HP to be used to propel the car rather than storing it in a rotating mass. The car revs faster, accelerates faster. Downshifts only require a mere touch of the gas to match the revs for a lower gear. The only negative is a slight gear rattle noise when slowly pulling from below 2000 rpm in 2nd gear. If the radio is on, you won't even hear it. This noise or rattle is otherwise absorbed by the original dual mass flywheel.
Check p-car.com and read Viken's write-up on the LWF.
I know you would like the improvment for the added cost over a new replacement clutch only.
<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
Fred R.
11-05-2002, 12:23 PM
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Fred- thanks for the insight- quite helpful. IT seems that the LWF is well worth it. When the transaxle was out did you change anything else? My mechanic tells me he can sneak the clutch out without dropping the motor. Assuming I also change the flywheel, would you recoomend anything else? I would like to get this all done at one time. Do you have a stock clutch in your car? TIA
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11-05-2002, 12:36 PM
#8
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Hi Eric,
The TT clutch is power assisted, and uses it's own dedicated hydraulic system, with a seperate reservoir (vs the Carreras which share this with the brakes). All this would be very expensive to retrofit to a C4S. Not sure if you can use only the TT pressure plate and disc, but if you could, the force required without the power assist feature would be too high to be comfortable.
With only 57K miles you should be able to reuse your pressure plate (I did this once on a 3.2 Carrera and it worked out fine).
You still have the LWF and RS clutch choices. If you do an archive search, you'll find these options discussed a lot on this board. Good luck.
The TT clutch is power assisted, and uses it's own dedicated hydraulic system, with a seperate reservoir (vs the Carreras which share this with the brakes). All this would be very expensive to retrofit to a C4S. Not sure if you can use only the TT pressure plate and disc, but if you could, the force required without the power assist feature would be too high to be comfortable.
With only 57K miles you should be able to reuse your pressure plate (I did this once on a 3.2 Carrera and it worked out fine).
You still have the LWF and RS clutch choices. If you do an archive search, you'll find these options discussed a lot on this board. Good luck.
11-05-2002, 01:14 PM
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Dick-
That explains why my friend's TT's cltuch feels so "easy". I was wondering about that, I thought it just had a huge helper spring. I think you are right, that the use of TT pressure plate would require too much force. I guess my plan is to put a stock in with a LWF- this seems like the best option. The saga continues.... Thanks again.
E
That explains why my friend's TT's cltuch feels so "easy". I was wondering about that, I thought it just had a huge helper spring. I think you are right, that the use of TT pressure plate would require too much force. I guess my plan is to put a stock in with a LWF- this seems like the best option. The saga continues.... Thanks again.
E
11-05-2002, 01:17 PM
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What are you using the car for? Street driving? Out and out track competition?
Personally, I have 72K miles on my OE clutch on my '95; this includes 5-6 track weekends and 3-5 autocrosses a year. Clutch feels fine. I do NOT see what benefit any of the aftermarket/racer upgrades will do if you are not totally tracking/competing in the car and need maximum shifting speed. I see no benefit of a lightweight flywheel; right now I have to lightly apply throttle while upshifting to prevent RPM dropping below value needed for next higher gear. I don't speedshift, I don't hammer the shifts, but I don't think I exactly dawdle.
Personally, I have 72K miles on my OE clutch on my '95; this includes 5-6 track weekends and 3-5 autocrosses a year. Clutch feels fine. I do NOT see what benefit any of the aftermarket/racer upgrades will do if you are not totally tracking/competing in the car and need maximum shifting speed. I see no benefit of a lightweight flywheel; right now I have to lightly apply throttle while upshifting to prevent RPM dropping below value needed for next higher gear. I don't speedshift, I don't hammer the shifts, but I don't think I exactly dawdle.
11-05-2002, 01:29 PM
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Have to agree with Ray here: I do NOT see what benefit any of the aftermarket/racer upgrades will do if you are not totally tracking/competing in the car and need maximum shifting speed.
It depends very much upon what you're using your car for. To preface, I have a LWF and single mass clutch; however, I use the car quite often on the track. The biggest improvements I notice is during heel and toe downshifts. When the clutch is not under load, the engine does rev noticeably more freely. Under load, it's almost a wash. I think if you mesasured it, you will notice virtually no performance improvements during street driving with a LWF.
Fred mentioned "smoother idle". I'm sure this is true; however, it sounds counter-intuitive to me, since one of the primary reasons we have all that mass in the first place is to smooth out out the reciprocating motion of the engine. I would guess idle would be at least as smooth with the stock flywheel. I didn't notice any difference with either.
I and others have experienced stalling issues with the LWF; however, that was an easy fix for me via a reprogrammed chip.
Anywho's, just be cautious when doing any upgrades to insure that it fits your specific needs. Having Greg's used clutch/flywheel available may also $way your opinion.
It depends very much upon what you're using your car for. To preface, I have a LWF and single mass clutch; however, I use the car quite often on the track. The biggest improvements I notice is during heel and toe downshifts. When the clutch is not under load, the engine does rev noticeably more freely. Under load, it's almost a wash. I think if you mesasured it, you will notice virtually no performance improvements during street driving with a LWF.
Fred mentioned "smoother idle". I'm sure this is true; however, it sounds counter-intuitive to me, since one of the primary reasons we have all that mass in the first place is to smooth out out the reciprocating motion of the engine. I would guess idle would be at least as smooth with the stock flywheel. I didn't notice any difference with either.
I and others have experienced stalling issues with the LWF; however, that was an easy fix for me via a reprogrammed chip.
Anywho's, just be cautious when doing any upgrades to insure that it fits your specific needs. Having Greg's used clutch/flywheel available may also $way your opinion.
11-05-2002, 02:11 PM
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Eric,
I hadn't planned on doing anything on my car until my "stuck in neutral" problem happened. In order to fix the problem, the transaxle needed to come out and be opened up to determine the cause and repair it. As long as I was spending the money for the labor to remove / install the transaxle, and to disassemble / fix the internal problem, I opted to install the LWF as well as re-gear the 3-6 gears in the transaxle. See the thread today regarding G64/21 transmission for details.
My point is, as long as you have to replace the clutch, you can upgrade to the LWF setup for only the difference in parts. The labor is essentially the same.
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Fred R.
I hadn't planned on doing anything on my car until my "stuck in neutral" problem happened. In order to fix the problem, the transaxle needed to come out and be opened up to determine the cause and repair it. As long as I was spending the money for the labor to remove / install the transaxle, and to disassemble / fix the internal problem, I opted to install the LWF as well as re-gear the 3-6 gears in the transaxle. See the thread today regarding G64/21 transmission for details.
My point is, as long as you have to replace the clutch, you can upgrade to the LWF setup for only the difference in parts. The labor is essentially the same.
<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
Fred R.
11-05-2002, 02:18 PM
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Eric,
Sorry, I forgot to answer your questions.
1. The LWF kit from Gert Carnewal includes flywheel, clutch disc, pressure plate, throwout bearing, clutch guide tube, and the necessary bolts to put it all together. It is essentially the 964 RS flywheel and clutch pack. The same parts were used on the 993 RS. I suspect that this pressure plate might have a slightly greater clamping load than the stock unit.
2. One thing I asked my dealer to do, but he forgot, was to replace the clutch slave cylinder. With the engine and transaxle out of the car, it was just dangling the air and would have been a snap to change.
Hope this helps,
Fred R.
Sorry, I forgot to answer your questions.
1. The LWF kit from Gert Carnewal includes flywheel, clutch disc, pressure plate, throwout bearing, clutch guide tube, and the necessary bolts to put it all together. It is essentially the 964 RS flywheel and clutch pack. The same parts were used on the 993 RS. I suspect that this pressure plate might have a slightly greater clamping load than the stock unit.
2. One thing I asked my dealer to do, but he forgot, was to replace the clutch slave cylinder. With the engine and transaxle out of the car, it was just dangling the air and would have been a snap to change.
Hope this helps,
Fred R.
11-05-2002, 03:27 PM
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My $0.02
I have a '95 and replaced my clutch with the RS LWF/clutch (they go together, can't add the LWF without the clutch).
Stalling was bad, it was eliminated with an ISV adjustment (it will not be an issue with a 96+ car).
The change will make your car quicker. My car is much quicker than a stock 933 and many other guys commented on it during autocross. However, if you care, the LWF will bump you into Np class so the competition gets tougher.
You can definitely remove the transmission (and replace clutch) without dropping the engine.
I also had no plans to modify my car until I had a transmission problem. I then jumped off the cornice and headed straight down the slippery slope (no sight of the bottom yet)
I have a '95 and replaced my clutch with the RS LWF/clutch (they go together, can't add the LWF without the clutch).
Stalling was bad, it was eliminated with an ISV adjustment (it will not be an issue with a 96+ car).
The change will make your car quicker. My car is much quicker than a stock 933 and many other guys commented on it during autocross. However, if you care, the LWF will bump you into Np class so the competition gets tougher.
You can definitely remove the transmission (and replace clutch) without dropping the engine.
I also had no plans to modify my car until I had a transmission problem. I then jumped off the cornice and headed straight down the slippery slope (no sight of the bottom yet)
11-05-2002, 07:53 PM
#15
Local guy picked up car with Windward Performance LWF modification recently. Previous owner beat it quite badly, just as you describe with your car. The car was slipping 2 to 3 shifts very noticably at times. I believe the kit includes a comprehensive set of components, including new hardware and seals. He says that stalling is no problem and it is quite pleasing to drive now. That car was a 1997, I believe. That might be another contact for the modification. It uses factory Porsche parts, as I understand.