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Handling Concerns

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Old 09-03-2018, 01:00 AM
  #16  
ginch
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Crazy. I was just going to start a post on exactly the same handling issue. I went for a spirited drive today with some friends (B7 RS4, R8 V8, Lancia delta integrale, and me). I couldn't keep up in the twisties. My 993 felt very uninspiring in the corners. Basically very similar to the OP. Seems like like the steering input is very non linear. I'll turn into a corner and it seems to all of a sudden turn in after a bit. Hard to describe but feels very disconcerning. Totally not linear! I'm guessing its alignment related but maybe its suspension or steering related!
Old 09-03-2018, 08:15 AM
  #17  
Magdaddy
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2ndof2...you mentioned that you recently changed the rear tires only, did you replace them with the exact same tire-width, and aspect ratio.

I recently replaced the rears only also...Hankook doesn’t make a 295/30 anymore, so I reluctantly went with a 285/35. That 285/35 was 0.9” taller than the 295/30 it replaced, and the cars handling was diabolical.

Bought a full set of 4 tires, and the cars handling is now closer to what I expect. Still attempting to schedule a corner balance/alignment to fine tune.
Old 09-03-2018, 12:50 PM
  #18  
Mr.Woolery
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Usually "dartiness" is caused by too much toe out. If it's initial dartiness in a turn, I'd look torwards the front toe out. If it's getting more darty after turn initiation, it's likely more of a rear toe out issue--as the inside rear tire unloads and the outside rear tire loads up, the balance of grip tends to the side with the toe out on the outside rear tire.

Which bushings where changed? Some of them or ALL of them?
I noticed you mentioned that new OEM bushings were installed. If only some of the bushings were changed, the softer, fresher rubber of the new bushings would allow more movement than the older, age hardened rubber bushings that weren't replaced. That could cause wonky bushing play relative to each other, too.
Old 09-03-2018, 03:13 PM
  #19  
s2racer
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I'll throw my 2c in...Before I replaced the front control arm bushings (as well as the rears), my 96 C2 could be a little darty with some shimmy in the steering wheel. I agree with everyone else toe sounds a little out. Also important (apparently) is getting the alignment done with the proper kinematic toe adjustment tool thing-a-ma-jig. I went with Elephant Racing sport hardness, and replaced some of the rear arms. Really firms the steering input up. Nice to have the "sport" back in sports car. My next step is getting rid of the original cats; probably go x-pipe with Fister 2s.
Old 09-03-2018, 08:00 PM
  #20  
Tlaloc75
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Were all the rear bushings and shock mounts replaced? I know that feeling of the car wanting to turn more than my steering inputs would allow. It’s probably the rear trying to steer the front. If your bushings are shot you will get unpredictable rear toe changes and extra KT effect which can be pretty disconcerting.

After I replaced all the rubber in my suspension (and I mean all of it) my car became extremely solid and inspiring to drive.

Good luck!
Old 09-05-2018, 12:48 AM
  #21  
element
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I came from a r53 MCS and a big rear sway bar.. on my 993 i had the US spec sway bars and always struggled with the weight shifting around when i got it sideways and you get the pendulum effect - i tightened everything else up on the 993 .. i put on the RS bars and its like the mini - changes direction like a scalpel and very controllable when sideways. Its definitely the biggest impacting mod i have done - just today on cold tires i had the back end step out and just drove through it with a smooth step on the gas and big grin

i miss the crazy handling of the mini - 993 is much more of a beast and fun having RWD + motor in the back!

phil.
Old 09-05-2018, 12:47 PM
  #22  
2ndof2
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To the questions about bushings I can’t say for sure what was done at the rear of the car. Definitely not any shock tower mounts on the car. If it “visually” needed bushings they were replaced but I realize some factors like their hardness is not visually apparent so.... The M020 (or whatever the code is for the ROW lowered springs and bars are what the car came with) are what is on the car. I kept the sway bars but swapped those springs for the Bilstein’s that came with the PSS9 kit. I think these M020 bars are a bit more rigid than the standard so never have felt that the car leans too much when the weight shifts. Not sure what difference is compared to RS bars. Its surprising just how good my Mini R53 handles compared to the 993 at least at moderate speeds. I live nearby a stretch of road known to the locals as “The Mulhulland Snake” and its a fun twisty section that many sport bike riders blast through on the weekends. It also attracts plenty of high end hardware and me on my bicycle during weekday evenings when nobody is around. Fun road. I took the mini there after a bunch of mods to see how it handled. The 993 clearly has more power but the Mini with motor tweaks and all felt just as fast to the point that I’m not brave enough (or stupid enough) to go any quicker in either car. I haven’t ever timed it but I doubt that I go significantly faster in either car. I just want the 993 to regain my confidence without that sudden darting feeling. Will need to do some measurements for toe, look underneath for signs of bushing degradation and then get the car over to Porsche where they have the kinematic tool. With tires wearing evenly and no apparent issues other than that dartiness not sure what is really going on until all of that is done to find out for sure. Thanks everyone for the input. Will keep you posted.
Old 09-05-2018, 01:15 PM
  #23  
Tlaloc75
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The bars are not the problem. If you have m030 they are plenty stiff for street driving. That’s what I use and I love them.

My car felt similarly nervous when I first got it a couple years ago. It took a complete suspension rebuild, plus three alignments, and new tires to get it where I wanted it. I learned that every bushing and every ball joint needs to be replaced on these cars if they haven’t been done already. For instance my front ball joints tested OK but the car felt significantly better after I replaced them. I was able to do parts in ‘waves’ so I could feel the impact of most of the changes on their own. Front bushings made a big difference, then tie-rods made another big difference, then ball joints made another significant difference. That was just in the front. In the rear, I did all balljoints and all bushings, including subframe, and the difference was night and day.

After doing just the front, the steering felt more precise and tighter but the car still felt nervous and like it had a mind of its own. I did the rear and that feeling went away. I did go through several alignments, because small changes in toe and camber make big differences in vehicle feel. I even had the chance to experiment with various KT settings and there is a huge difference in feel depending on where this is set. If you like the rear steering itself, you will want more KT. If you prefer the rear to be quicker and feel more like a traditional 911, then you want less KT setting and stiffer bushings (or mono *****) in the rear. I went with sport bushings throughout and love the feel. Just a touch of rear steer, enough to keep me out of trouble. Another rennlister did full mono ***** and when I drove his car I liked it too. Not a huge difference from mine. Slightly more harshness, slightly different rear-end feel. So for street driving you can’t go wrong with the sport bushings. They are very close to monoball feel, with less harshness and better longevity.

I also found a big difference in feel with various ride heights. Too high and it feels a bit roll-y. Too low and it feels nervous and harsh. Maybe due to my shocks (PSS10) and stock wheel carriers. But after lots of experimentation I found RS+10 (also RoW Sport -10) to be the best compromise. Even 5mm lower felt nervous.

Moral of the story, these are highly tuned machines and every little detail matters if you want a car that handles right. It’s worth it though. With RE71r tires on, I’ve never driven a car that is more fun, feels more solid, or is more inspiring to drive.

Good luck!



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