DaveS

I am looking at a 96 Tip Cab with 35,000 miles. The price sounds good ($35K) but the vehicle doesn't have any service records beyond a few dealer stamps in the warranty book. The car seems to drive fine and of course I would get a thorough PPI done.

Would you buy or still pass if the PPI checks out clean?

billh1963

Service records are nice but a THOROUGH PPI (and the stamped service book) will tell you most of what you need to know. Even with service records it could still be a crap shoot (the seller could leave out "selected" records showing a history of A/C repair, accident damage repair, or other items for example).

My car has most records from new but it wasn't a buying factor. I still had a thorough PPI at a great independent shop and then a third party view from a fellow Rennlister who checked it out for me.

mike cap

Dave,

You didn't say if your buying from a dealer or a PP. Either way, the paper trail on the car is a very important component of the PPI.

With a little sleuthing, you should be able to obtain ALL the service records from the dealer or PO. You have the dealer's name, what else besides the VIN# do you need?

The paper trail could contain all sorts of useful info, not the least of which is a long period of NO SERVICE. This would indicate an accident that layed the car up for months.

You're not buying a Honda Accord here, the 993 is a fairly complicated and exotic automobile. The car in question has been around for almost 8 years and the history of its life "experiences" are in the service records. And the older the car gets, the more important these files are.

I have two files on my car, the maintenance history and mod and improvement history. Both are inches thick. A lot of the maintenance history was obtained from the PO and dealer before me.

I'd get the service records, either thru your own efforts or the owner's, pass on the car or discount it for "no logbooks".

Mike Cap
1997 C2
Arena Red

Mark in Baltimore

I would feel a heck of a lot better if the car I was buying had full records. Barring that, as Mike said, you should be able to obtain more info from the dealer log in the warranty book. I bought my 95 without full and complete records but was able have the local dealer print out a record of all the work that was done on the car. It passed that test, as well as a PPI, and I've been happy ever since.

amfp

Personally, I would not buy without records. Another alternative is call PCNA and provide them serial number. They may be able to tell you where the car was serviced, and you can back into the records that way too.

DC from Cape Cod

If it has the stamps for the 15K and 30K service then you can get copies of those records from the dealer.

Are you looking for extra oil-change receipts or is something else missing?

Frank 993 C4S

I purchased my car on the condition that the previous owner (I did not buy from a dealer) contact the locations where all the services were done and provide duplicate receipts. Since my car only had 30k miles, that was only for the 15k and the 30k service. Although I had no proof that the oil was changed between the scheduled service intervals a PPI showed that the car was in great condition and was well cared for. I passed on two other cars (one from a PO dealer) that had no service records whatsoever since I felt that those people caring for their car would also take the sime to save the receipts for repairs and services.

PS, I don't keep my repair and mod receipts seperate just in case my wife finds them. All my mods are repairs in my view.

993Racer

I would definitelyt knock down teh price w/out records. Even teh best PPI will not cover everything. After doing several they always miss something.

Also I would get the records form teh other service establishments by calling them. I have done this and been pleasantly surprised.

No matter what a 993 w/out records is worth less value than a well documented one... Most recognize the investment on the mechanical condition with records. W/out them likely it wasnt serviced like it should have been... <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

tangram

When I negotiated purchase of my car (a one owner 993) in a private deal, I requested that the PO collect the records, which took him a while but did. On doing so, I discovered that the PO had not followed the recommended service schedule, including none of the major services! BUT, I got the car checked out by the independent mechanic who had maintained the car on and off over its life, and after a thorough PPI (AND the mechanic knowing that I planned on getting him to service the car if I bought it i.e. it will really be to your benefit not to screw me over). The PO was very diligent with oil changes, which I took as a good sign, plus he raced open wheel cars so I assumed he understood the importance of properly maintaining the car (maybe not, who knows!). Finally, it became clear during negotiations that this was not a sale he wanted to make, that he had planned on keeping the car for ever. People with that mindset are much more inclined to keep up with the maintainance than somebody who is leasing a vehicle, with the intention of flipping back the keys in two or three years.

I bought the car, but at a nicely discounted price.

One year later, I've had one minor electrical problem where I found a workaround and nothing mechanical go on the car. It pulls great, doesn't seem to burn much oil at all, and is just an absolute joy to drive.

Moral of the story is: if the PO is serious about selling, he will get the records. In doing so, you will have a much better idea of what you are getting into. I would be much more inclined to buy the car if it was the original owner, since he will have had the car for at least 5 years by this time and would have maintained it properly.

acastell

Agreed with Tangram

"I requested that the PO collect the records, which took him a while but did."

I will only buy a car with records...as others have stated, these can be obtained with VIN# and dealer names.

sy308

Dave,

I have a few thoughts for you on this. Last year, I bought two cars sight unseen WITHOUT PPI and all I had was MOST of the old records. One was car was about the same age, mileage and condition as yours and the other was an '86. Both were great cars. One was resold by me for what I paid for it and the other I kept and am still driving.

What I submit is there are many factors which may offer a buyer enough information to make a suitable purchase decision. Lots of guys make a PPI an almost mystic portion of a purchase. If you know what you are doing, ask questions, and know the cars well then you can make do without some items. You need some information, however, to make some estimate of the value of the car. In this manner, when repairs or mods come along you will know whether you are getting your money's worth or not. This might give you additional information on securing the best negotiated price too.

Now, if you know nothing about automotives, never owned a car like this before and do not repair anything yourself, I would NOT recommend doing what you are contemplating unless the purchase comes with some sort of warranty. Then you are protected either way and like on the Sopranos: "forget about it".

The fact is that these cars are like the old Mr. Goodwrench commercials that used to say, "you can pay me now or pay me later". Many times, owners of these cars can afford the purchase, but really ignore little things when it comes to maintenance and the cars get only fair attention. This can lead to postponing problems until later, say when YOU own the car. This is why you should have as much information as possible, unless you have always dreamed of this particular model in this color with this interior, etc. Relax, there are plenty of cars around. Yes, it might take a few months to snag one, but they do come along all the time. Act in haste, repent in leisure.

What you can do to get records is get the VIN of the car and contact your local dealer. They should be able to get the purchase dealer information for you and maybe the original records. The book you have might have this too. Problems come around if the dealer has closed or sold to a group or is now operating under a different name. Owners move, cars get resold and many times repairs go to independent mechanics. You can't trace these things easily. Lots of things can happen in 7 years. The bottom line is that you should be able to persist and get WARRANTY repairs for the first three years of ownership. Unfortunately, Porsche is not like MB and you will run into a brick wall trying to get more than this data. But this is a start. You probably will be able to get the latest information on it as the seller is either the person who has been servicing the car or knows who owned it. Simple phone calls might pin this down so you have information on the service record during the most current ownership. Ask questions, maybe the seller knows the previous owner or shop where it was serviced. Now, obviously we are not talking about knowing if the seat motor was repaired under warranty at 4300 miles, for example. You are looking for all the other stuff, like frequent oil changes, flushing brakes, transmission work or major engine repairs. Things like body repaints, damages or new tires might also pop up. Hey, like the lottery advertisements, "hey, you never know". Go for it, you have little to lose.

A PPI might dig up some problems, but not all. It is a look at a slice of time. Yes, a mechanic you trust will be able to give you some idea of how much care and maintenance car the car got, but records will tell lots more. I really thing BOTH things are going to help you find out whether the car was abused or not. That is the issue.

Good luck on your decision. I hope my perspective is helpful. Happy hunting.

DaveS

Thanks for all the advice. I was able to track down some service records at Brumos in JAX. For better or for worse, there was not much to report from them except regular oil changes and a 20,000 mile service. The 30,000 mile service was not performed by them and the car moved up to Atlanta around that time. I doubt the PO had it done.

I took a flyer on the car anyway. Seemed the car was listed on eBay by a local dealer who had it on consignment. The current owner was actually bidding against others (I happen to recognize her name from an tire purchase receipt in the glove box)as I guess because it was a no reserve auction, she was afraid of letting it go at too low a price. She actally won the auction which no doubt upset the dealer. I think I could have cut a deal with the dealer at an ok price, but I figured any owner that "unscrupulous" no doubt skimped on the car maintenance too.

Bob D.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DaveS:
<strong> The current owner was actually bidding against others (I happen to recognize her name from an tire purchase receipt in the glove box)as I guess because it was a no reserve auction, she was afraid of letting it go at too low a price. She actally won the auction which no doubt upset the dealer. I think I could have cut a deal with the dealer at an ok price, but I figured any owner that "unscrupulous" no doubt skimped on the car maintenance too.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Disgusting, and frankly, kind of stupid action by the current owner, IMHO.

I've actually gotten some great stuff at fair prices from ebay, but unfortunately there are plenty of stories like this one too.

Good decision to pass on the car, but you probably can't afford to pass on ebay. Unfortunately it seems to have become such a force that you can no longer ignore it when searching for a car as (relatively) rare as a 993. I think the ideal way to use ebay is to treat it as a giant classified ads source: if you find an interesting car, then try to make a deal outside of ebay for it using all usual steps (PPI, etc.).

Good luck in your hunt. I spent many months looking for a 993 through many different sources, so if I can be of any help please email me.