Proj993

I just had an alignment done at the dealer and they told me they could not adjust the camber to specifications. I’ve atttahced the before and after report. The car has RUF springs, sport shocks and 18” BBS RS2 wheels . I’ve owned the car since 2005 and the suspension modification and lowering was done by the prior owner. The technician at the dealer believes the springs might have required some hardware that maybe the prior installer neglected to install. I've always serviced the car at a dealership. This dealership is new to me because of a move. The two prior Porsche dealerships never brought this up and I had done alignments at their shops.

The problem I’m having is that the rear tires wear too quickly. I replaced the the 4 tires 22,000 miles ago. The fronts are still fine, while I had to replace the rears once after 14,000 miles and then again after 8,000 miles. I get uneven were on the rears with the inside wearing out while the rest of the tires still have plenty of thread.

Here are my questions:

1. What part/parts do I need to increase camber adustability?
2. The report shows asymmetric settins. Is symmetry important?

Endoman

It could be a result of lowered ride height.

Railmaster.

993s are known to consume rear tires a lot faster than most cars and a lot faster than the front tires!

I am not surprised that You can't have factory settings done with the modifications mentioned above! But are You pleased or not with the way the car drives on the road?

k722070

your rear tire wear problem is from the red .25 LR toe on the before number. that is a massive amount of drag and would wear out that rear tire quickly.
should be fixed with the new rear toe settings.

you didn't specify what factory camber specs can't be reached, is it 2 degrees front or 1.2 degrees rear?
the current measurements for the front doesn't make sense, graph shows -.17 to -.5, like the target was -.3?
the rear target looks like it was -1.17 and they ended with -1.8 so too much camber.
very likely the person doing the alignment used the kinematic arm to adjust camber.

start by assuming the tech has no idea what is going on, just telling you a story to get you out of the way.
then ask what specific piece of hardware might be missing from the spring, you will probably get some other crazy excuse, like spring hydraulic fluid.
then ask the tech where the kinematic was set. you will either get a blank stare or told kinematic doesn't matter.
then ask for your money back and take the car someplace else.

so, the parts you need are an alignment shop with 993 experience, not a dealer.
symmetry is important, but more important is that it is easy to achieve.
from the alignment sheet results it is entirely possible someone put the car on the alignment rack, went to lunch, forgot to adjust camber and just set toe after lunch and said the car was done.

pp000830

+1

I went through a lot of rear tires until I found a guy who knew what he was doing, my car is lowered (US height -30) so it is still within ROW height range allowing for alignment to factory specification.

The original poster can ask the shop to set the ride height before doing the alignment and see if it can be set into the OE working range.

Proj993

Thanks for all the responses everyone.

Railmaster: Yes, I'm happy with the way the car drives on the road, just not happy with tire consumption.

k7222070: Neither the front nor the rear camber could be set to specifications.

pp000830: I looked through your attachment. I'll have to find out what my ride hide is set to. Do I understand it correctly that your car is set to Front: 144, Rear: 127 and aligned to factory settings? The attachment refers to a color marking. Where is that found?

pp000830

Yes, those are my settings, you will find that the settings are a bit approximate depending on how your car settles down when measured.
I would think if you put the car on level pavement, measured at the measuring points in the document and go through bouncing the car and taking a measurement three times, then average the resulting value you will have a good number for reference in the future.
The springs have what look like paint patches on the coil. If your springs are original you should see the paint. Not always easy to tell the color after 20 years. Looking up if your car is M030 can help you understand what colors to expect or if you have aftermarket springs they usually have a part number printed on them and are painted black or some color overall.

user 723923490

I had some problems getting my camber settings correct after lowering. I took Bill's advice and it worked fine;
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-lowering.html

k722070

yes, but what specifications?
you paid for the work, you can ask what they were trying to accomplish.

let's assume the dealer was trying to set the front camber to -1.0
they put the car on the rack, measured -1.23, loosened the eccentric, tried to adjust to -1.0 and couldn't get there.
in fact the only value they could reach was -1.19, pretty much the exact same place they started.
same thing happened in the rear, starting value was -1.51, tried to get -1.20, couldn't and ended up at -1.51.
do you think this is likely?

there are lots of possibilities for the end result, none are because the springs were changed 15 years ago or the ride height is not original.
keep in mind I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the camber or toe. the difference between -1.19 and -1.0 is almost meaningless on a street car.
and the absolute end values are fine also(except they are not equal side to side).
my point is the dealer is either clueless or lying to you about the end result.
if you are happy paying the dealer to fix the toe and tire wear issue then you are done.
if you want an actual alignment you need to find a shop that has worked on a 993.

Proj993

Thanks all for the latest responses.

k7222070: Until the discussion in this thread, I was assuming the technician knew what he was doing and the specs are what they are based on some shop manual that he is supposed to follow. I'll try to find out what they were aiming for. Are you saying a front camber setting of -1.5 and a rear setting of -1.8 isn't too bad for a street car as long as it is the same setting right and left? In the thread Allan referred me too, I see a target of -0.33 for the front and -1.17 for the rear. Does anyone know if these are what Porsche recommends?

pp000830: M030 is not mentioned in my option list. Here are a couple of pictures from the front and rear. The front springs appear black and the rears are green. Do these shed any more light as to what's on the car?


Front


Rear

k722070

you are right about the tech looking up and using values from the shop manual.
the shop manual shows usa front camber as -20', the -.33 mentioned.
but with ruff springs your car is not set to usa standard ride height of 174 so you probably don't want factory delivered specs.
and the tire wear issue was most likely from the rear toe being off, which is now fixed.
my opinion is that -1.19 front and -1.51 rear is fine unless you are driving 100 miles on the freeway every day.
the previous dealer might have been using some sport alignment setting or just getting it as close to rs values as they could.
in that case the front -1.19 vs rs -1.0 +/-.16 is very close, although not symmetrical. the rear would also be very close.

so, you are happy with the way the car handles and the tire wear issue has probably been fixed.
but I would still suggest locating a shop that has worked on 993s, ask if they have a kinematic gauge, if yes take it to them for an alignment.
you want the kinematic set correctly and want camber set the same right to left.
most dealers don't have a kinematic gauge, and most techs will reach behind the rear wheel to adjust camber which is correct for every 911 for the last 20yrs.
but on a 993 they will be adjusting the kinematic arm and the result is a mess.

Proj993

Thanks. Is there a link you can send me regarding Kinematic Arm so I know what I'm talking about when I call the dealer?

Too late now, but would it have made sense to switch the rears right and left since only the inner sections were worn and not really too badly yet?

Here're the report from the prior time I had done an alignment in 2014 at another dealer. All settings were symmetric then. Is there any reason why the current dealer could not match right and left such as worn components?

k722070

search rennlist.com/forums/993-forum for kinematic.
possible the old dealership was just better at doing alignments.
interesting that rear toe was corrected in 2014 and current, and almost the same amount.
you probably need to check the rear toe control arms to see if they are toast.

Proj993

Proj993

Thank you. I found this image in one of the threads. Is KT arm another name for Kinematic Arm? Is #2 the part that my problematic?

I reached out to the dealer with some questions per this thread. The service manager was very responsive. They suggested I take the car back next week for them to make the alignment as good as possible. Here are the answers to my questions and more detail from the service manager. This raises one more question. What is consequence of replacing eccentrics with blocks?

"According to my tech, the adjustments were maxed out and some of the change from side to side may be due to settling but I can’t truly speak to this until I have gone over the car. Sometimes you can make other adjustments that allow you to make further camber adjustments. It also sounds like the front eccentrics have been removed and replaced with blocks. If the holes in the blocks are offset, we may be able to rotate them 90 degrees at a time to allow for more adjustment as well.

1. Was the ride height checked before alignment and if so, what were the readings?
a. My tech checked front to rear difference to make sure it was in spec but did not check total height. This is where my foreman and I want to start with the car next week.

2. Was the Kinematic Arm (please see the attached pdf) adjusted in an attempt to set the camber? If so, does your technician have a kinematic gauge?
a. Yes we have the proper gauge and my tech did use it as per the workshop instructions.

3. What are the settings that your technician was targeting?
a. If you look in the upper corners of the boxes that show the measurements for each adjustment, you will see the specified range we try to get between."