Michelin Pilot Sport Cub Tires, they work...
12-03-2002, 03:45 AM
#1
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Michelin Pilot Sport Cub Tires, they work...
just as the recent Pano article specified, I believe it was the November edition. I had a set of 225/45/17 Fronts and 255/40/17 rears mounted up by Al Reed at Al Reed Polishing in Anaheim, CA. He does not butcher your wheels.
I realize that 255/40/17 tires are not monster tires, but as you will see below, they do the job oh so very well.
I spent this past weekend with the Porsche Owners Club at Willow Springs International Raceway for their grand finale event of the year, Time Trials and Cup Races.
On Saturday, my second session with these tires, I turned a best time (POC Timed) of 1.37:20, with other times reasonably close. By the last session of the day, #4, I had a personal best of 1:36.8, also POC Timed. These are not Hot Lap times!!!!
My previous personal best at WSIR was 1:39.20, not a fast time, but a somewaht respectable time. And that was on Kumho VictoRacer V700 tires, a few months earlier.
1:36.80 at Willow Springs is 2.4 seconds faster for you non-math majors, that is a huge improvement, and in addition, 1:36.80 is plenty fast considering the class record is 1:36.49.
Also note that my car is running with stock seats and 5 point harnesses. I have been told that a race seat is worth a second. My interest in a race seat is beginning to become acute!
The two changes I made to the car, more negative camber front and rear, and adding the Pilot Sport Cup Tires. My driving hasn't gotten significantly better, ergo, it is the tires and some credit to the alignment.
Thanks to Hank Cohn for pushing me over the edge and urging me to try out the Pilot Sports. Oh by the way, if you are running with POC next year in my class, MP, next year to be LP, DONT BUY THESE TIRES. YOU WON'T LIKE THEM!!!
AND DON'T CRANK IN THAT PESKY NEGATIVE CAMBER!!! AND DON'T ASK ME WHO SETS UP MY CAR!
I realize that 255/40/17 tires are not monster tires, but as you will see below, they do the job oh so very well.
I spent this past weekend with the Porsche Owners Club at Willow Springs International Raceway for their grand finale event of the year, Time Trials and Cup Races.
On Saturday, my second session with these tires, I turned a best time (POC Timed) of 1.37:20, with other times reasonably close. By the last session of the day, #4, I had a personal best of 1:36.8, also POC Timed. These are not Hot Lap times!!!!
My previous personal best at WSIR was 1:39.20, not a fast time, but a somewaht respectable time. And that was on Kumho VictoRacer V700 tires, a few months earlier.
1:36.80 at Willow Springs is 2.4 seconds faster for you non-math majors, that is a huge improvement, and in addition, 1:36.80 is plenty fast considering the class record is 1:36.49.
Also note that my car is running with stock seats and 5 point harnesses. I have been told that a race seat is worth a second. My interest in a race seat is beginning to become acute!
The two changes I made to the car, more negative camber front and rear, and adding the Pilot Sport Cup Tires. My driving hasn't gotten significantly better, ergo, it is the tires and some credit to the alignment.
Thanks to Hank Cohn for pushing me over the edge and urging me to try out the Pilot Sports. Oh by the way, if you are running with POC next year in my class, MP, next year to be LP, DONT BUY THESE TIRES. YOU WON'T LIKE THEM!!!
AND DON'T CRANK IN THAT PESKY NEGATIVE CAMBER!!! AND DON'T ASK ME WHO SETS UP MY CAR!
12-03-2002, 03:20 PM
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I love those Pilot Cups too! My personal best time dropped almost 2 seconds (78 second laps) from Kuhmo V700s...
12-03-2002, 05:14 PM
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Martin,
I know who set up your They would be the same people who set mine up. Even though you do nothave as aggressive of a set up as mine, I think you might be under estimating the car set up a bit. The tire certainly helps but the car set up, not just camber but other factors (which I am sure they did) make a huge difference. It is noticeable just by driving the car let alone timing the car.
Glad you had such a great time (both event and times)!
I am looking forward to my new front and rear aerodynamic aids coming late this week. Hopefully soon I will be able to go up to Willow to get some lap times.......can't wait!
I know who set up your
They would be the same people who set mine up. Even though you do nothave as aggressive of a set up as mine, I think you might be under estimating the car set up a bit. The tire certainly helps but the car set up, not just camber but other factors (which I am sure they did) make a huge difference. It is noticeable just by driving the car let alone timing the car.Glad you had such a great time (both event and times)!
I am looking forward to my new front and rear aerodynamic aids coming late this week. Hopefully soon I will be able to go up to Willow to get some lap times.......can't wait!
12-03-2002, 05:37 PM
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Tire temps were 200 degrees or under less...once I had the tire pressures sorted out. Michelin recommends the tires be run 24 to 28 cold, I believe. I have found this is a good starting point with a 2 Lb differential between front and rear.
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12-03-2002, 05:56 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Craig W.:
<strong>The MP Record is a 1:36?
Dang, that tempts me to move up to Production from Improved next year.
No slippery slope, Must resist, M U S T RESIST!!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just to provide a wake up call, the MI record is 1:30, ay least that is what Don Dicker was doing in his Hoosier equipped MI 996 car this past weekend. His record screams to be broken. Next year the 996 cars stay in M, and the 993 cars drop back to L.
In contrast to Don Dicker's very well prepared MI car, rumor has it (Urban Legend) that Cort Wagner drove a stock 996, on street tires, to a 1:30 at Willow Springs. To me, this is the absolute limit on the car on street tires....but remember the 4:00 minute mile, the under 2 hour marathon, records are meant to be broken. Give Cort some Hoosiers, or any other DOT legal "sticky" tires, I believe we would see a 1:28, and that is fast!!!
Don't resist, come on out!!!! Get those Michelin Pilot Sport Cups, crank in some negative camber, and away you go. I would love to see more 993 cars at the track with POC. Presently there are few, too few. It would be fun to have more 993 cars to drive with, especially those with drivers looking to break the MI and or the MP track record at Willow Springs. You be the rabbit, and we'll try to keep up!
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
<strong>The MP Record is a 1:36?
Dang, that tempts me to move up to Production from Improved next year.
No slippery slope, Must resist, M U S T RESIST!!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just to provide a wake up call, the MI record is 1:30, ay least that is what Don Dicker was doing in his Hoosier equipped MI 996 car this past weekend. His record screams to be broken. Next year the 996 cars stay in M, and the 993 cars drop back to L.
In contrast to Don Dicker's very well prepared MI car, rumor has it (Urban Legend) that Cort Wagner drove a stock 996, on street tires, to a 1:30 at Willow Springs. To me, this is the absolute limit on the car on street tires....but remember the 4:00 minute mile, the under 2 hour marathon, records are meant to be broken. Give Cort some Hoosiers, or any other DOT legal "sticky" tires, I believe we would see a 1:28, and that is fast!!!
Don't resist, come on out!!!! Get those Michelin Pilot Sport Cups, crank in some negative camber, and away you go. I would love to see more 993 cars at the track with POC. Presently there are few, too few. It would be fun to have more 993 cars to drive with, especially those with drivers looking to break the MI and or the MP track record at Willow Springs. You be the rabbit, and we'll try to keep up!
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
12-03-2002, 06:43 PM
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Hmmm...Craig, if you hurry over I have...
..."a setof 225/45/17 Fronts and 255/40/17 rears mounted up by Al Reed at Al Reed Polishing in Anaheim, CA." with just 2 recent track days at Willow Springs..."best time (POC Timed) of 1.37:20" available...Great Price...
..."a setof 225/45/17 Fronts and 255/40/17 rears mounted up by Al Reed at Al Reed Polishing in Anaheim, CA." with just 2 recent track days at Willow Springs..."best time (POC Timed) of 1.37:20" available...Great Price...
12-03-2002, 09:19 PM
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*Successful thread hijack continued*
Don D hustles that 996 MP, er um MI, car around very nicely. That is the perfect example of why the 996 belongs one class above the 993. Especially now that the new ones are sporting 320 ponies with gobs of torque, aerodynamic improvements, etc etc. Good job Martin in getting that through to the comp committee.
Laura - what wheels are they mounted on, and at what price? <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Hhhm, well Martin, I have a set of fikse 17's in the garage, sans rubber, that I used to run on the Boxster. They sure would look nice with some PSC's on em. Along with 2 sets of Forgelines, at least one of which has some old hoosiers on em. All of them will fit on the C2S. I figure that I'll do a few short track events in LI with just the old rubber, a Trackquest event or two, and maybe a PCA event (since I can run without a rollbar at the big track, *I think*)
I'm really trying to avoid getting sucked into the Production/V class thing - with work and family commitments I can't do many events. And I could have a ton of fun in Improved for the few weekends I can get a hall pass.
Then again, I have 3 clients bugging me to take them out to drive at POC events, so perhaps they'll force my hand into driving more, business and all that, you know!
Don D hustles that 996 MP, er um MI, car around very nicely. That is the perfect example of why the 996 belongs one class above the 993. Especially now that the new ones are sporting 320 ponies with gobs of torque, aerodynamic improvements, etc etc. Good job Martin in getting that through to the comp committee.
Laura - what wheels are they mounted on, and at what price? <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Hhhm, well Martin, I have a set of fikse 17's in the garage, sans rubber, that I used to run on the Boxster. They sure would look nice with some PSC's on em. Along with 2 sets of Forgelines, at least one of which has some old hoosiers on em. All of them will fit on the C2S. I figure that I'll do a few short track events in LI with just the old rubber, a Trackquest event or two, and maybe a PCA event (since I can run without a rollbar at the big track, *I think*)
I'm really trying to avoid getting sucked into the Production/V class thing - with work and family commitments I can't do many events. And I could have a ton of fun in Improved for the few weekends I can get a hall pass.
Then again, I have 3 clients bugging me to take them out to drive at POC events, so perhaps they'll force my hand into driving more, business and all that, you know!
12-04-2002, 09:33 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Martin:
<strong>You be the rabbit, and we'll try to keep up!
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
What's up DOC???? <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
Very much looking forward to MP, or make that LP (right) next year? You know, I really like my car but it sat in the back of my mind that my '95 had to compete with the 2002. So the lowest h.p. car in the class Vs a car with more HP, more torque and a longer wheel base which (I'm told) equals better handling.
Martin, I too look forward to the Big Track next year. I think the first event ... I was going to say will finish off the Kuhmo's but I think there is a short track first thing in the year? Damn, what's that POC schedule again? But this was the info I was wondering on the MPSC's, how much quicker they could be? Here's the question, is it worth putting them on the Streets of Willow?
Cheers, hope to meet you guys at the big boys sand pit next year.
Adios from Australia (for now).
Dylan.
<strong>You be the rabbit, and we'll try to keep up!
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
What's up DOC???? <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
Very much looking forward to MP, or make that LP (right) next year? You know, I really like my car but it sat in the back of my mind that my '95 had to compete with the 2002. So the lowest h.p. car in the class Vs a car with more HP, more torque and a longer wheel base which (I'm told) equals better handling.
Martin, I too look forward to the Big Track next year. I think the first event ... I was going to say will finish off the Kuhmo's but I think there is a short track first thing in the year? Damn, what's that POC schedule again? But this was the info I was wondering on the MPSC's, how much quicker they could be? Here's the question, is it worth putting them on the Streets of Willow?
Cheers, hope to meet you guys at the big boys sand pit next year.
Adios from Australia (for now).
Dylan.
12-04-2002, 10:25 AM
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Laura...I have a time slip with a 1:36.8 on it from later in the day (Saturday), clearly not as good as Jr, but my personal best! I wold have done better on Sunday, but the "dog ate my homework", "the sun was in my eyes", the tires "went away", the ....
Craig: I bitched and moaned about the HP delta between a early 993 with 270 HP and the 996 with 320 HP, too much, and the 996 has the advantage of a longer wheelbase...blah, blah. Personally, I will be delighted to run in L Production next year. Also, I do not believe PCA requires a roll bar for Big Willow. Also, I would not waste a set of Pilot Sort Cups at SOW...this track is a car beater and a tire eater!
Times for a stock 993, with a good driver having a bit of experience at Big Willow, running 50 to 80 rated sticky tires, I would estimate to be a 1:37 to 1:40. It all depends on the drivers Big Brass ones through 8, 9 and through 1 and 2, and how much speed he/she will carry up into 3.
My next "investment" will be a seat. It is difficult to drive the car well when you are pinned against the door, holding on for dear life, or tossed to the right in Turn 1, IMHO, of course.
Bottom line, Big Willow is a challange, and turn 9 is probably one of the most difficult turns to do well. Cort Wagner, Randy Pobst and other professional types have said this, who am I to disagree? But it is great personal reward when you get a good time there!
Craig: I bitched and moaned about the HP delta between a early 993 with 270 HP and the 996 with 320 HP, too much, and the 996 has the advantage of a longer wheelbase...blah, blah. Personally, I will be delighted to run in L Production next year. Also, I do not believe PCA requires a roll bar for Big Willow. Also, I would not waste a set of Pilot Sort Cups at SOW...this track is a car beater and a tire eater!
Times for a stock 993, with a good driver having a bit of experience at Big Willow, running 50 to 80 rated sticky tires, I would estimate to be a 1:37 to 1:40. It all depends on the drivers Big Brass ones through 8, 9 and through 1 and 2, and how much speed he/she will carry up into 3.
My next "investment" will be a seat. It is difficult to drive the car well when you are pinned against the door, holding on for dear life, or tossed to the right in Turn 1, IMHO, of course.
Bottom line, Big Willow is a challange, and turn 9 is probably one of the most difficult turns to do well. Cort Wagner, Randy Pobst and other professional types have said this, who am I to disagree? But it is great personal reward when you get a good time there!
12-04-2002, 12:51 PM
#14
This tire thread is apparently going to be endless, but FWIW, here's my 2 cents--
I recently talked to a driver on a pro team (Speedvision WC) and he supplied the following info on the Michelins vs. Hoosiers-- Around Daytona, the Hoosiers were 2.5 seconds a lap faster.
That doesn't mean I think the Sport Cups are bad tires. In fact, I love 'em and used a fresh set for a recent club race. They are amazingly consistent and don't go off toward the end of a race, as Hoosiers are wont to do. And the wear characteristics are truly amazing. That makes the Michelins the perfect tire for a guy like me.
However, the tire's durability partly comes from the Michelins' harder compound, and all things being equal (and money being no object), I still think a pair of sticker Hoosiers should be a little quicker.
I recently talked to a driver on a pro team (Speedvision WC) and he supplied the following info on the Michelins vs. Hoosiers-- Around Daytona, the Hoosiers were 2.5 seconds a lap faster.
That doesn't mean I think the Sport Cups are bad tires. In fact, I love 'em and used a fresh set for a recent club race. They are amazingly consistent and don't go off toward the end of a race, as Hoosiers are wont to do. And the wear characteristics are truly amazing. That makes the Michelins the perfect tire for a guy like me.
However, the tire's durability partly comes from the Michelins' harder compound, and all things being equal (and money being no object), I still think a pair of sticker Hoosiers should be a little quicker.
12-04-2002, 06:31 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Martin:
<strong>...the tires "went away", the ....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey that's one excuse you have to drop for now. DOH!! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> (I know your joking).
DCLEE, here would be an equation to consider (not for our club racing/TT format). In a longer race, if the H's start to drop off, but the M's hold there consistancy, then would you be better off on the M's? Who know's how much time wise the H's would drop off in a longer distance race?
Hopefully keeping with this theme of tires, lap times and improvement, for someone with experience on the Willow Big track, would I see improvement in times fitting an LSD? I am told for the Streets it's good for maybe 2 seconds? But the big track not being as tight, do you see the same benefits?
No hi-jack intended. Stick to the tires, stick to the tires. Oops, no punn intended!
Cheers,
Dylan.
<strong>...the tires "went away", the ....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey that's one excuse you have to drop for now. DOH!! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> (I know your joking).
DCLEE, here would be an equation to consider (not for our club racing/TT format). In a longer race, if the H's start to drop off, but the M's hold there consistancy, then would you be better off on the M's? Who know's how much time wise the H's would drop off in a longer distance race?
Hopefully keeping with this theme of tires, lap times and improvement, for someone with experience on the Willow Big track, would I see improvement in times fitting an LSD? I am told for the Streets it's good for maybe 2 seconds? But the big track not being as tight, do you see the same benefits?
No hi-jack intended. Stick to the tires, stick to the tires. Oops, no punn intended!
Cheers,
Dylan.