Ceramic brakes on a T
#31
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In summary, you don't have to have puny brakes on your Carrera T. We have lots of options that are 100% bolt-on. No other modifications required. Everything comes in the box and drops right on with basic hand tools. You can see a sample installation guide here: https://www.essexparts.com/storage/w...18_radical.pdf
I don't think I posted any of our ENP caliper finish shots above...so samples:
I don't think I posted any of our ENP caliper finish shots above...so samples:
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'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services
Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs
Ferodo Racing Brake Pads
Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030
jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services
Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs
Ferodo Racing Brake Pads
Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030
jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
#32
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Shout out to Rick at @Hinz Motorsport , installed a set of ST rotors and RC1 Pagid pads on my GTS recently and love them so far.
The brake feel and response are far improved over the stock steel rotors. Brake dust is next to nothing compared to steel rotors. Butt dyno says you can feel the loss of inertial mass in each corner.
They are a bit pricey but knowing they can be refurbished and are easily dual purpose for track/road is icing on the cake. Glad, I didn't get the Porsche PCCB and went with STs instead.
Forgot to mention, Rick is a pleasure to deal with and a wealth of information.
The brake feel and response are far improved over the stock steel rotors. Brake dust is next to nothing compared to steel rotors. Butt dyno says you can feel the loss of inertial mass in each corner.
They are a bit pricey but knowing they can be refurbished and are easily dual purpose for track/road is icing on the cake. Glad, I didn't get the Porsche PCCB and went with STs instead.
Forgot to mention, Rick is a pleasure to deal with and a wealth of information.
Last edited by silencei2; 01-30-2024 at 05:52 PM.
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Hinz Motorsport (01-31-2024)
#33
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I bought all the factory parts for the PCCB conversion 6 months ago. Originally planned to do the swap on my first T but decided to hold off for my 2nd T. I've collected all the weight references between the steel and carbon ceramic that I'll post once I started the project. Will be interesting.
#34
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@Hinz Motorsport can you please DM price info and more details on ETA?
If you want the lightest, most durable, longest lasting, quietest, and only dustless solution on the market for your Carrera T, Surface Transforms are the only way to go. The RSC1 compound has much better bite, feel, and modulation over the factory iron pads, and can be used on both street/spirited and track. One pad to do it all, no swapping back and forth between street and track compounds. The Touring after all wasn't designed for lap times, so I think a big brake kit is a one-size-fits-all solution to a problem very few will have. If you wanted factory ceramics for all the "Touring-related" benefits they provide and couldn't get them, this is basically your only option and a significant upgrade over the factory PCCBs at that. Customers love these brakes and often end up putting them on other vehicles they own...
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-Rick
HINZ MOTORSPORT
Race Parts & Accessories for your PORSCHE
www.HinzMotorsport.com
Call: 414-212-5679
Email: rick@hinzmotorsport.com
-Rick
HINZ MOTORSPORT
Race Parts & Accessories for your PORSCHE
www.HinzMotorsport.com
Call: 414-212-5679
Email: rick@hinzmotorsport.com
Last edited by Hinz Motorsport; 01-31-2024 at 03:40 PM.
#35
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Why are carbon ceramic discs typically bigger than their equivalent iron discs on the same model of vehicle? Carbon ceramic discs run considerably hotter than iron discs, and that is why carbon ceramic discs tend to be so much larger than their iron cousins on the same model. Carbon ceramic discs have very high surface temperatures (we've seen a couple hundred degrees cooler on our brake dyno). For example, if a given model of 911 comes with 3800mm front and rear iron discs, the factory carbon ceramic disc option on that same trim level will be 420mm front and 390mm rear. The discs will also have a much taller disc face, and the pad will be much taller as well. Why? To spread out heat. Since carbon ceramic discs run hotter the goal is to run a tall pad and disc face to increase heat radiation. Also, carbon ceramic discs don't have as complex of an internal vanes inside the disc for cooling. There are a lot loss cooling vanes, if any at all..typically just cooling holes rather than directionally shaped vanes. You can learn more about carbon ceramic vs. iron discs in this article: Are carbon ceramic brake discs better than iron?
#36
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Why are carbon ceramic discs typically bigger than their equivalent iron discs on the same model of vehicle? Carbon ceramic discs run considerably hotter than iron discs, and that is why carbon ceramic discs tend to be so much larger than their iron cousins on the same model. Carbon ceramic discs have very high surface temperatures (we've seen a couple hundred degrees cooler on our brake dyno). For example, if a given model of 911 comes with 3800mm front and rear iron discs, the factory carbon ceramic disc option on that same trim level will be 420mm front and 390mm rear. The discs will also have a much taller disc face, and the pad will be much taller as well. Why? To spread out heat. Since carbon ceramic discs run hotter the goal is to run a tall pad and disc face to increase heat radiation. Also, carbon ceramic discs don't have as complex of an internal vanes inside the disc for cooling. There are a lot loss cooling vanes, if any at all..typically just cooling holes rather than directionally shaped vanes. You can learn more about carbon ceramic vs. iron discs in this article: Are carbon ceramic brake discs better than iron?
Last edited by Hinz Motorsport; 01-31-2024 at 05:53 PM.
#37
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Definitely not disputing the idea that many avid track folks are switching. I would note that I had thought it was primarily due to cost as the PCCB’s were so horrendously expensive to replace and wore out quickly without (or maybe with) careful pad management (I literally don’t personally know that though, just hearsay from sources like this board). However, for the T specifically, remember that this model has SMALLER rotors as well, and I doubt you are finding many GT3 owners swapping to base carrera brakes, but rather swapping in like size irons for their expensive PCCB’s to manage cost of their addiction. Swapping to same size iron is still a bigger and faster stopping and less fading setup than we have on the T. I know brake tests are always subject to error, but C&D at least gives us something to look at, and in October stated they found the T needed 143 feet to stop from 70 mph vs 136 for the S (I think they have the far heavier Turbo S at 133’ btw), and from 100 mph the S stopped in 270’ vs the T’s 284’. Happy to be corrected on any of this if I’m mistaken, but it would be a first for me to hear about anyone in automotivedom saying they couldn’t wait to get smaller brakes… cheaper or different material, sure, but not smaller.
In terms of weight, our AP Racing by Essex Kit shaves about 35 lbs. of unsprung weight vs. the OEM iron 992 GT3 brakes, and on the M2 we shave a whopping 40 lbs. of unsprung mass! Our ethos in terms of brakes is that you only need what you need to get the job done, so we calculate just how big our systems really need to be for a given vehicle. For our Competition Brake Kits we don't use discs that are gratuitously large just for the sake of filing up the wheels to look cool. The advanced design and materials in our systems allow you to go smaller and still achieve the desired results. So, one of our kits that runs a 372mm disc can be far more efficient, flow more air, and shed more heat than a more pedestrian disc of a larger diameter.
Also, our AP calipers employ numerous advantages over stock. In addition to only weighing half as much in some cases, they use stainless steel pistons to keep out of your brake calipers and fluid...less boiled fluid= less bleeding and servicing. They also have anti-knockback springs that help maintain a high, hard pedal under all conditions. They also flow more air through the caliper to keep everything cooler...all those gaps in the calipers create a lot of opportunities to shed heat. The Radi-CAL calipers are the dominant calipers in pro racing right now. You can watch a video and read more about their technology here:
https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...-radical-story
Brakes don't stop the car, tires do.
In terms of stopping distances, those are more of a function of tires than they are the brakes. Brakes turn the spinning kinetic energy of the discs into heat. The tires are the only thing that have contact with the road/track surface, and what are actually stop the car. If you want to shorten stopping distances, the only practical way of doing so is through stickier tires. Brakes are all about heat. Also, the magazines are notorious for inconsistent testing procedures, equipment, etc., so I wouldn't put too much stock in their quoted stopping distances for two different vehicles. That would be particularly true if the data for each car was not collected on the same day, under the same conditions, in the same manner. If the tires on the two cars were different, any comparison flys right out the window.
Since this is the one piece of the T that I would replace if I could, I’m very interested in options to improve braking. My use case for this car is DD+, and if I’m going to pay for bigger brakes, lower weight and less dust are pretty nice to have as a side benefit…. To each their own as always. I probably would have checked yes for regular S brakes if I could have, even though some of the T weight savings is the smaller rotors…
Value
One of the greatest benefits of our system is retained value and the preservation of your OEM calipers. Our brake systems hold their value extremely well due to their durability, serviceability, and AP Racing's stellar reputation as a top supplier. Our brake kits typically change hands on the used market for about 65-70% of what they cost new. If you spend roughly $11k on our four wheel kit, you'd typically expect to get $6,000-$7,000 back if you sold them used. That means you can buy them, enjoy them, beat them up, sell them for thousands of dollars, and still have your fresh OEM brakes sitting in your garage, ready to drop on your car when you're ready to sell it. That is absolutely not the case with OEM brake equipment or aftermarket carbon ceramic discs. They immediately lose considerable value the second you put them on your car, and they only continually lose value thereafter. When you try to sell your car to the next owner, the carbon ceramic discs will also be a hot point of scrutiny. How much mass is left in them (determined by weight)? How many miles on them? Have they been refurbished, and if so, how many times? How long are they going to last? Lots of questions to answer...
Our brake kit can truly mean the difference between laying out many thousands of dollars for new/fresh brake components when you sell your car (only to hand that money to the new owner) vs. collecting thousands of dollars at the time of sale.If the new owner prefers the AP Racing setup, you'll still have a fresh set of OEM brakes on the shelf. You'll be able to either factor them into the deal, or sell them to another 911 owner for a handsome sum. If you decide to pull our brake kit off before selling the car, then you can turn them into thousands of dollars instantly. Regardless of which brake system the new owner prefers, you still win.
Last edited by JRitt@essex; 02-01-2024 at 04:18 PM.
#38
thank you both Essex and Hinz on this thread. Very insightful and informative from both of you, I realize both of you have an interest in being here but taking the time to interact, educate, explain and debate (and sell a little 😉 is wonderful. I am learning some things, which always brightens my day. I feel like this thread has become brakes 101 and 201. Can I edit old posts still… ? Oh well. I have plenty of record of being wrong out in this world, lol. Thanks guys.
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#39
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Pricing for the discs is $6957.50 per axle. Total kit costs with pads and shipping are roughly $14,455. With Rennlist Group Buy (min 5 orders) we can do $13.4K. As most of you will be street-driving your T, these discs will last indefinitely and will be noiseless and dustless on the street. If you decide to track the car, the RSC1 pads will be up to the task. The factory calipers are just fine for the power levels of the T, despite what others may be trying to sell you in this thread. The 350mm front and rear ST discs are incredibly capable and will work fantastically on track if called upon.
Is there other specific reason not to develop the kit in, let's say 380mm instead of the stock 350mm size? for this kind of money, I would much prefer the added visual difference. Let's be honest, the stock 350mm package looks very weak behind the 20" & 21" wheels.
On a side note, think about another possibility for the kit to work on 718 4.0 cars. I would def upgrade since PCCB is not an option for them (Cayman & Boxster) for years.
Last edited by 20C4S; 01-31-2024 at 08:42 PM.
#40
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thank you both Essex and Hinz on this thread. Very insightful and informative from both of you, I realize both of you have an interest in being here but taking the time to interact, educate, explain and debate (and sell a little 😉 is wonderful. I am learning some things, which always brightens my day. I feel like this thread has become brakes 101 and 201. Can I edit old posts still… ? Oh well. I have plenty of record of being wrong out in this world, lol. Thanks guys.
If you'd like to learn more about brakes in general, please check out our Essex learning center and FAQ: https://www.essexparts.com/support/learning-center--faq
On there we have lots of great educational articles and videos that can help you regardless of whether you're running a stock or aftermarket brake system. We have articles and videos on how to get the most out of your brake pads, how to tell when your iron discs are worn out, whether it's okay to run stock pads on track, etc.
If you want to specifically see some of the Porsche owners we've helped with brakes, here's a compilation blog post we did a couple years back: https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...-kit-is-a-must
Thanks for listening to me blather.
#41
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Rick,
Is there other specific reason not to develop the kit in, let's say 380mm instead of the stock 350mm size? for this kind of money, I would much prefer the added visual difference. Let's be honest, the stock 350mm package looks very weak behind the 20" & 21" wheels.
On a side note, think about another possibility for the kit to work on 718 4.0 cars. I would def upgrade since PCCB is not an option for them (Cayman & Boxster) for years.
Is there other specific reason not to develop the kit in, let's say 380mm instead of the stock 350mm size? for this kind of money, I would much prefer the added visual difference. Let's be honest, the stock 350mm package looks very weak behind the 20" & 21" wheels.
On a side note, think about another possibility for the kit to work on 718 4.0 cars. I would def upgrade since PCCB is not an option for them (Cayman & Boxster) for years.
For what it's worth, the factory iron discs on the 991.2 and 992 T models are 330mm F/R, so our 350mm kits are a little bigger for these applications.
Regarding the 718 GTS 4.0 models, we have front kits available but have been waiting for the rears to get developed since last year. Once finished, we will have kits available for nearly every Boxster and Cayman model (iron or pccb) from the 981 and up (the 987.2 w/PCCB is also covered). These are again 350/350mm kits. All GT4 and 718 Spyder models run 410/400 mm kits.
Last edited by Hinz Motorsport; 02-01-2024 at 11:46 AM.
#42
Slightly off topic from ceramic brakes, but are there advantages to going with two piece rotors for the Carrera T with standard brakes? Maybe heat management, less fade, longevity , weight reduction or other?
#43
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@Hinz Motorsport what is the exact weight savings by replacing the factory 330mm with your 350mm?
@JRitt@essex what is the weight savings by replacing the factory T calipers with your 4 pot calipers?
@JRitt@essex what is the weight savings by replacing the factory T calipers with your 4 pot calipers?
#44
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Front= https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...-replace-330mm
Rear= https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...air-35028-rear
Oh...and the J Hooks look cooler IMO...bonus!
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BED997 (02-02-2024)
#45
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@Hinz Motorsport what is the exact weight savings by replacing the factory 330mm with your 350mm?
@JRitt@essex what is the weight savings by replacing the factory T calipers with your 4 pot calipers?
@JRitt@essex what is the weight savings by replacing the factory T calipers with your 4 pot calipers?
Front= https://www.essexparts.com/ap-racing...1372mm-porsche
Rear= https://www.essexparts.com/ap-racing...orsche-911-992
Part of the reason we can save so much weight is because our calipers tend to weigh several pounds less than the OEM calipers. With true floating aluminum hats, our discs are also lighter than the OEM iron discs, even though they are considerably larger. We see this on pretty much all platforms. In some cases our kits are actually lighter than OEM carbon ceramic setups. That was true on the C7 Corvette Z06/ZR1, and we just saw this on the 992 Turbo and 992 GTS...Our largest four-wheel iron brake kit actually weighs the same as the OEM PCCB system, and is far lighter than the GTS iron system (by about 35-37 lbs.).
In short, stock calipers are heavy. When you remove all the unnecessary mass from the calipers, you can remove considerable weight (and gain a huge number of other benefits such as stiffness, easy pad removal, a million brake pad options from all manufacturers, anti-knockback springs, stainless steel pistons that prevent heat soak in fluid, ventilated pistons that cool more rapidly, more resilient finish vs. paint or powder coat...the list goes on). Here are a couple recent photos from our measurement session with the GTS last week. These calipers are heavier than the Carrera T calipers, but you get the idea.
Front OEM Turbo / GTS PCCB caliper
Our front AP Racing Radi-CAL six piston caliper:
Size comparison next to a front GT3 iron caliper
Front 9661 caliper that we use in our Porsche kits in ENP...you can see how much weight is removed from the caliper...even inside near the pistons
Here's what an IMSA AP Racing Radi-CAL caliper looks like...you can see the similarities
Here's the current NASCAR Cup NextGen AP Racing Radi-CAL
Here's an AP Racing Formula 1 caliper from a few years back. You can see where the engineers went completely nuts with removing weight...even every gram of mass around the fluid pathways is removed, leaving just a small pipe to carry fluid between the pistons.
These calipers won the 24 Hours of Le Mans on a 911 GT3...a few times actually (among other major endurance races).
This video has more about the history and features of the AP Racing Radi-CAL:
Last edited by JRitt@essex; 02-01-2024 at 04:15 PM.