View Poll Results: Did you configure your 992 with RAS/RWS?
Yes
178
60.75%
No
107
36.52%
RAS / RWS Not Available
8
2.73%
Voters: 293. You may not vote on this poll
Is your 992 equipped with RAS?
03-04-2023, 06:43 PM
#46
Besides, what does this moron Walter Röhrl know... ?
"Yeah, for sure the rear-wheel-steering is part of using that power safely," Rohrl said. "The biggest advantage of four-wheel-steering is if you make a quick lane change. It's not really the handling. Of course, in a tight corner, it helps you that the car is turning in better. The biggest advantage is that quick lane change, though. It is much safer, much easier to drive."
"Yeah, for sure the rear-wheel-steering is part of using that power safely," Rohrl said. "The biggest advantage of four-wheel-steering is if you make a quick lane change. It's not really the handling. Of course, in a tight corner, it helps you that the car is turning in better. The biggest advantage is that quick lane change, though. It is much safer, much easier to drive."
03-04-2023, 07:19 PM
#47
Burning Brakes
>> That is the main reason why RAS is not standard on a T but optional.
As with all things, the main reason is cost. Since RAS requires mechanical actuators the accountants have determined it needs to be a-la-carte it on the lesser/cheaper models such as the T, but can be included 'for' free on the expensive GT models. Follow the money.
>> of course Walter will be positive about RAS
There's not a single person within 100,000 miles of this Star Wars bar who's even remotely qualified to second guess Walter.... if it works for Walter, it works for me.
As with all things, the main reason is cost. Since RAS requires mechanical actuators the accountants have determined it needs to be a-la-carte it on the lesser/cheaper models such as the T, but can be included 'for' free on the expensive GT models. Follow the money.
>> of course Walter will be positive about RAS
There's not a single person within 100,000 miles of this Star Wars bar who's even remotely qualified to second guess Walter.... if it works for Walter, it works for me.
Last edited by jlegelis; 03-04-2023 at 07:32 PM.
03-04-2023, 07:32 PM
#48
I love “Rennlist Logic”:
I have it or do it this way so everyone should have it or do it this way. And if you do not have it or do it this way then you are stupid because smart people like me have it or do it. Example: I have a blue base 992 with a glass sunroof, PDK and Burmeister stereo. Therefore, you are stupid to have a green 992S, MT with sunroof delete and Bose stereo……..
As Mark Twain suggested - quite trying to change everyone to be just like you as both God and you know that one of you on earth is more than enough.
I have it or do it this way so everyone should have it or do it this way. And if you do not have it or do it this way then you are stupid because smart people like me have it or do it. Example: I have a blue base 992 with a glass sunroof, PDK and Burmeister stereo. Therefore, you are stupid to have a green 992S, MT with sunroof delete and Bose stereo……..
As Mark Twain suggested - quite trying to change everyone to be just like you as both God and you know that one of you on earth is more than enough.
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03-04-2023, 07:36 PM
#49
Burning Brakes
>> I love “Rennlist Logic”
Or have you heard the one where everybody tries to second guess the merits of Porsche engineering decisions without a shred of actual technical analysis or factual understanding? I know a guy....
Or have you heard the one where everybody tries to second guess the merits of Porsche engineering decisions without a shred of actual technical analysis or factual understanding? I know a guy....
03-04-2023, 07:40 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Dude, give it a rest already. It's a f*cking OPTION. We're all very clear what you've chosen. Not everyone agrees with you. The end.
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Wilder (03-04-2023)
03-04-2023, 08:50 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
>> too much technology kills technology and fun.
What's next? Make mine with carbs, drum brakes and no syncros for a more 'authentic' driving experience? As mentioned, RAS is standard on all 992 GT cars, and you don't hear this absurd discussion on those boards. These cars are literally computers with wheels, so it's a fools game to be cherry picking this or that 'enhancement' as a bridge too far. What's the old adage about 'too much choice creating dissatisfaction'?
What's next? Make mine with carbs, drum brakes and no syncros for a more 'authentic' driving experience? As mentioned, RAS is standard on all 992 GT cars, and you don't hear this absurd discussion on those boards. These cars are literally computers with wheels, so it's a fools game to be cherry picking this or that 'enhancement' as a bridge too far. What's the old adage about 'too much choice creating dissatisfaction'?
Besides, what does this moron Walter Röhrl know... ?
"Yeah, for sure the rear-wheel-steering is part of using that power safely," Rohrl said. "The biggest advantage of four-wheel-steering is if you make a quick lane change. It's not really the handling. Of course, in a tight corner, it helps you that the car is turning in better. The biggest advantage is that quick lane change, though. It is much safer, much easier to drive."
"Yeah, for sure the rear-wheel-steering is part of using that power safely," Rohrl said. "The biggest advantage of four-wheel-steering is if you make a quick lane change. It's not really the handling. Of course, in a tight corner, it helps you that the car is turning in better. The biggest advantage is that quick lane change, though. It is much safer, much easier to drive."
>> That is the main reason why RAS is not standard on a T but optional.
As with all things, the main reason is cost. Since RAS requires mechanical actuators the accountants have determined it needs to be a-la-carte it on the lesser/cheaper models such as the T, but can be included 'for' free on the expensive GT models. Follow the money.
>> of course Walter will be positive about RAS
There's not a single person within 100,000 miles of this Star Wars bar who's even remotely qualified to second guess Walter.... if it works for Walter, it works for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQyo9guYh1Q
As with all things, the main reason is cost. Since RAS requires mechanical actuators the accountants have determined it needs to be a-la-carte it on the lesser/cheaper models such as the T, but can be included 'for' free on the expensive GT models. Follow the money.
>> of course Walter will be positive about RAS
There's not a single person within 100,000 miles of this Star Wars bar who's even remotely qualified to second guess Walter.... if it works for Walter, it works for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQyo9guYh1Q
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Dan006 (03-05-2023),
Vicbastige (03-04-2023)
03-04-2023, 11:03 PM
#54
Seems like a missed opportunity for a car show or magazine to have a professional driver test +/- RAS and provide an answer. The improved turning radius at slow speed wasn't enough to convince me to check the box.
03-04-2023, 11:11 PM
#55
Im in the middle of a 7 hour airplane ride and just got a chance to catch up on this thread... thank you all for keeping my mind occupied for the last 45min of my flight while I read today's heated debate. I've shared my detailed opinion of RAS in the T thread, so I won't subject everyone to that again...
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Macboy (03-06-2023)
03-06-2023, 08:49 AM
#56
Three Wheelin'
At the beginning I added RAS. I wasn't planning on keeping the car long and wanted RAS for resale. Then I delete RAS. First on the personal recommendation of the editor of an influential Porsche magazine and second, after seeing a correlation between RAS being mostly disliked by driving enthusiasts and RAS being liked mostly by the cars and coffee crowd. I then added RAS back on. I'm lucky to own an analog GT3 and thought maybe I would try out the tech. I also bought into the argument that "all GT cars have it, so it must be great" and lastly because it's a T specific option you can't get on the base. I finally settled on deleting RAS for the following reasons:
Hope this helps someone.
PS - when reading opinions, keep an eye on the following: most people who like RAS rarely provide a detailed explanation of what they like about it. They just say they like it or that it helps with turning radius. Conversely, most people who don't like it provide a detailed explanation of how the car feels and under what conditions that led them to dislike it. Listen to the later and not the former.
- I want a proper 911 with rear engine bias and AWS dials it out. I considered the GT4 and passed on it mostly because it's mid engined and therefore not a 911, even though it's more capable.
- I really want a 991.2 because I don't want so much tech in my car. The 992 was just going to be a placeholder. I finally bought into the 992 but I'm drawing the line at optioning-in unnecessary nannies.
- I don't want the extra 20 lbs, which is really a lot more considering it includes a light weight battery. I will be working to bring this car down into the 3,100 lb range and RAS will make that goal harder to reach.
- There are too many anecdotes of the "synthetic feel" by RAS. I cringe at the thought of buying a car that is all about feeling connected to the road and having it feel synthetic.
- Lastly, RAS is one more thing to break. Whether it's the RAS system, or the battery or the extra complexity of alignment, I rather do without it.
Hope this helps someone.
PS - when reading opinions, keep an eye on the following: most people who like RAS rarely provide a detailed explanation of what they like about it. They just say they like it or that it helps with turning radius. Conversely, most people who don't like it provide a detailed explanation of how the car feels and under what conditions that led them to dislike it. Listen to the later and not the former.
. My car serves the dual duty of daily driver and track toy and it has seen some 35 track days over the last 18 months.The action of RAS on the 992 can definitely be felt when performance driving, but it does not "transform" the handling dynamics of the car, it simply enhances certain desired behaviours. Passive rear wheel steering is not something new. The art of tuning rear suspension geometry to generate the desired level of toe change depending on the car's attitude has been in practice for many years. For instance, on my previous M4, the rear wheels would toe-in on compression and toe-out on extension. This makes the rear wheel "steer" in the same direction as the front when cornering to increase high speed stability. I would also enhance throttle lift rotation as the outside wheel that carries the greater load would toe out. The compromise of this passive setup is reduced turn-in response and a greater turning radius on tight corners when taken at speed (where the suspension is loaded enough to noticeably affect toe). Knowing how Porsche engineers their cars, I am pretty sure non-RAS equipped 992 also have passive rear wheel steer designed in the rear suspension geometry (i just have not looked it up). Dynamic rear wheel steer is not limited by suspension movement and therefore offers much greater possibilities in tuning of the handling characteristics. Porsche has done a fantastic job tuning the RAS on the 992. I find the RAS on my 911 enhances agility and responsiveness in transitions while increasing stability when it is needed. A great compromise that simply cannot be achieved with passive systems.
Andreas Preuninger on active rear-wheel steering…
‘I was shying away from it. I believed it was not puristic enough. But we tried it out and it helps so much. And you don’t notice it because it’s simply a steering rod system, not some electronic gizmo. We can change the angle of the rear wheels by 1.5 degrees, which doesn’t sound like much but the effect is tremendous. I couldn’t believe how much better the agility of the car and the turn-in capability are with the system. I did a back-to-back test, in one car with the system able to be turned off by a switch, and couldn’t believe the difference. And on track, the tyres last longer, so you are more consistent.
Last edited by CanAutM3; 03-06-2023 at 09:54 AM.
03-06-2023, 02:37 PM
#57
Your view seems quite judgemental . My car serves the dual duty of daily driver and track toy and it has seen some 35 track days over the last 18 months.
The action of RAS on the 992 can definitely be felt when performance driving, but it does not "transform" the handling dynamics of the car, it simply enhances certain desired behaviours. Passive rear wheel steering is not something new. The art of tuning rear suspension geometry to generate the desired level of toe change depending on the car's attitude has been in practice for many years. For instance, on my previous M4, the rear wheels would toe-in on compression and toe-out on extension. This makes the rear wheel "steer" in the same direction as the front when cornering to increase high speed stability. I would also enhance throttle lift rotation as the outside wheel that carries the greater load would toe out. The compromise of this passive setup is reduced turn-in response and a greater turning radius on tight corners when taken at speed (where the suspension is loaded enough to noticeably affect toe). Knowing how Porsche engineers their cars, I am pretty sure non-RAS equipped 992 also have passive rear wheel steer designed in the rear suspension geometry (i just have not looked it up). Dynamic rear wheel steer is not limited by suspension movement and therefore offers much greater possibilities in tuning of the handling characteristics. Porsche has done a fantastic job tuning the RAS on the 992. I find the RAS on my 911 enhances agility and responsiveness in transitions while increasing stability when it is needed. A great compromise that simply cannot be achieved with passive systems.
Andreas Preuninger on active rear-wheel steering…
‘I was shying away from it. I believed it was not puristic enough. But we tried it out and it helps so much. And you don’t notice it because it’s simply a steering rod system, not some electronic gizmo. We can change the angle of the rear wheels by 1.5 degrees, which doesn’t sound like much but the effect is tremendous. I couldn’t believe how much better the agility of the car and the turn-in capability are with the system. I did a back-to-back test, in one car with the system able to be turned off by a switch, and couldn’t believe the difference. And on track, the tyres last longer, so you are more consistent.
. My car serves the dual duty of daily driver and track toy and it has seen some 35 track days over the last 18 months.The action of RAS on the 992 can definitely be felt when performance driving, but it does not "transform" the handling dynamics of the car, it simply enhances certain desired behaviours. Passive rear wheel steering is not something new. The art of tuning rear suspension geometry to generate the desired level of toe change depending on the car's attitude has been in practice for many years. For instance, on my previous M4, the rear wheels would toe-in on compression and toe-out on extension. This makes the rear wheel "steer" in the same direction as the front when cornering to increase high speed stability. I would also enhance throttle lift rotation as the outside wheel that carries the greater load would toe out. The compromise of this passive setup is reduced turn-in response and a greater turning radius on tight corners when taken at speed (where the suspension is loaded enough to noticeably affect toe). Knowing how Porsche engineers their cars, I am pretty sure non-RAS equipped 992 also have passive rear wheel steer designed in the rear suspension geometry (i just have not looked it up). Dynamic rear wheel steer is not limited by suspension movement and therefore offers much greater possibilities in tuning of the handling characteristics. Porsche has done a fantastic job tuning the RAS on the 992. I find the RAS on my 911 enhances agility and responsiveness in transitions while increasing stability when it is needed. A great compromise that simply cannot be achieved with passive systems.
Andreas Preuninger on active rear-wheel steering…
‘I was shying away from it. I believed it was not puristic enough. But we tried it out and it helps so much. And you don’t notice it because it’s simply a steering rod system, not some electronic gizmo. We can change the angle of the rear wheels by 1.5 degrees, which doesn’t sound like much but the effect is tremendous. I couldn’t believe how much better the agility of the car and the turn-in capability are with the system. I did a back-to-back test, in one car with the system able to be turned off by a switch, and couldn’t believe the difference. And on track, the tyres last longer, so you are more consistent.
Sounds like everyone is right- Not as puristic, better for track.......Whatever side of that you fall on, determines if you check the box. It took a million posts, but sounds like there's a nail in the coffin here.
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Wilder (03-06-2023)
03-06-2023, 03:35 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Your view seems quite judgemental . My car serves the dual duty of daily driver and track toy and it has seen some 35 track days over the last 18 months.
The action of RAS on the 992 can definitely be felt when performance driving, but it does not "transform" the handling dynamics of the car, it simply enhances certain desired behaviours. Passive rear wheel steering is not something new. The art of tuning rear suspension geometry to generate the desired level of toe change depending on the car's attitude has been in practice for many years. For instance, on my previous M4, the rear wheels would toe-in on compression and toe-out on extension. This makes the rear wheel "steer" in the same direction as the front when cornering to increase high speed stability. I would also enhance throttle lift rotation as the outside wheel that carries the greater load would toe out. The compromise of this passive setup is reduced turn-in response and a greater turning radius on tight corners when taken at speed (where the suspension is loaded enough to noticeably affect toe). Knowing how Porsche engineers their cars, I am pretty sure non-RAS equipped 992 also have passive rear wheel steer designed in the rear suspension geometry (i just have not looked it up). Dynamic rear wheel steer is not limited by suspension movement and therefore offers much greater possibilities in tuning of the handling characteristics. Porsche has done a fantastic job tuning the RAS on the 992. I find the RAS on my 911 enhances agility and responsiveness in transitions while increasing stability when it is needed. A great compromise that simply cannot be achieved with passive systems.
Andreas Preuninger on active rear-wheel steering…
‘I was shying away from it. I believed it was not puristic enough. But we tried it out and it helps so much. And you don’t notice it because it’s simply a steering rod system, not some electronic gizmo. We can change the angle of the rear wheels by 1.5 degrees, which doesn’t sound like much but the effect is tremendous. I couldn’t believe how much better the agility of the car and the turn-in capability are with the system. I did a back-to-back test, in one car with the system able to be turned off by a switch, and couldn’t believe the difference. And on track, the tyres last longer, so you are more consistent.
. My car serves the dual duty of daily driver and track toy and it has seen some 35 track days over the last 18 months.The action of RAS on the 992 can definitely be felt when performance driving, but it does not "transform" the handling dynamics of the car, it simply enhances certain desired behaviours. Passive rear wheel steering is not something new. The art of tuning rear suspension geometry to generate the desired level of toe change depending on the car's attitude has been in practice for many years. For instance, on my previous M4, the rear wheels would toe-in on compression and toe-out on extension. This makes the rear wheel "steer" in the same direction as the front when cornering to increase high speed stability. I would also enhance throttle lift rotation as the outside wheel that carries the greater load would toe out. The compromise of this passive setup is reduced turn-in response and a greater turning radius on tight corners when taken at speed (where the suspension is loaded enough to noticeably affect toe). Knowing how Porsche engineers their cars, I am pretty sure non-RAS equipped 992 also have passive rear wheel steer designed in the rear suspension geometry (i just have not looked it up). Dynamic rear wheel steer is not limited by suspension movement and therefore offers much greater possibilities in tuning of the handling characteristics. Porsche has done a fantastic job tuning the RAS on the 992. I find the RAS on my 911 enhances agility and responsiveness in transitions while increasing stability when it is needed. A great compromise that simply cannot be achieved with passive systems.
Andreas Preuninger on active rear-wheel steering…
‘I was shying away from it. I believed it was not puristic enough. But we tried it out and it helps so much. And you don’t notice it because it’s simply a steering rod system, not some electronic gizmo. We can change the angle of the rear wheels by 1.5 degrees, which doesn’t sound like much but the effect is tremendous. I couldn’t believe how much better the agility of the car and the turn-in capability are with the system. I did a back-to-back test, in one car with the system able to be turned off by a switch, and couldn’t believe the difference. And on track, the tyres last longer, so you are more consistent.
I get the technical benefits of RAS. I've owned a few 993s which have kinematic toe adjustment in the rear to serve the same purpose. I see RAS as an evolution of KT, philosophically speaking.
I detailed my thought process in the bullets. I get it will help the car handle better, though I must admit, I didn't consider tire wear reduction mentioned by Andreas which is important. It's still doesn't make sense to me for a car that will rarely see track and I've opted out of it. The drawbacks are just not worth it unless, like you situation, the car is going to be tracked heavily.
And to clarify, I shared my observation, not my view. There is no judgement. If you read through the various RAS posts, you'll be hard pressed to find one that describes the benefits of RAS at half the level you have. It's mostly comments about how the shorter radius helps park or U turns or how it feels more planted. None offer technical or even detailed anecdotal descriptions about the benefits. Conversely, many of those that don't like it, have published their detailed reasons and they are consistent. For people like me who can't test drive a RAS car prior to ordering, the later group is helpful.
Last edited by Wilder; 03-06-2023 at 04:09 PM.
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Macboy (03-06-2023)
03-06-2023, 03:58 PM
#59
As said multiple times: there is no right or wrong about RAS. The benefits have been mentioned. The negatives have been mentioned. Just see what kind of driver you are and in what type of those driving styles you fit. And even then you can still chose to do something else. The only downside to me is that all the arguments are spread around different threads.
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Wilder (03-06-2023)
03-06-2023, 04:55 PM
#60
Andreas Preuninger on active rear-wheel steering…
‘I was shying away from it. I believed it was not puristic enough. But we tried it out and it helps so much. And you don’t notice it because it’s simply a steering rod system, not some electronic gizmo. We can change the angle of the rear wheels by 1.5 degrees, which doesn’t sound like much but the effect is tremendous. I couldn’t believe how much better the agility of the car and the turn-in capability are with the system. I did a back-to-back test, in one car with the system able to be turned off by a switch, and couldn’t believe the difference. And on track, the tyres last longer, so you are more consistent.