Carwow Base Carrera vs GT3 around a racetrack
11-26-2021, 12:39 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
There are other factors that make the extrapolation not as meaningful as one would think. First, this looks like a slow track. This diminishes the GT3 advantage. Second, it looks like bad surface (judging by the acceleration times in the second part of the video). That then becomes more of a race between tire grip than what the engine can deliver.
But I agree that a non professional driver will probably not get the most of either car but will do what feels comfortable. So he will drive both about the same way which will negate the advantage of the GT3. Not saying this is what happened here - have no idea who the driver is.
But I agree that a non professional driver will probably not get the most of either car but will do what feels comfortable. So he will drive both about the same way which will negate the advantage of the GT3. Not saying this is what happened here - have no idea who the driver is.
11-26-2021, 12:40 PM
#32
Tompoodie, all good points. Another thing about the track is that you are in a controlled environment and can do it again and again, learning every bit of the track and getting to a point where you can push it close to the car’s limit. It a street situation people revert to what is sensible (with a large safety margin) and would drive basically the same way no matter the capability of the car.
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Tompoodie (11-26-2021)
11-26-2021, 01:22 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Polite person, I searched for some time to find what the difference is between Michelin Sport Cup 2, Sport Cup 2R, Pilot Sport 4S.
I have screenshots on my phone of a test, but I can't remember where this came from (Tire Rack ??). That said these were the results of the same driver testing the tires under the same conditions the same day on a 2.74 km track.
Pilot Sport Cup R 1 minute 8.5 seconds
Pilot Sport Cup 2: 1 minute 10.2 seconds
Pilot Sport 4S: 1 minute 12.1 seconds
IMO Cup 2 tires as factory equipment on a 911 (given that in this test they decreased the lap time by almost 2 seconds) make it seem as if you're getting more value for your money paying a more for faster car then you're actually getting.
I have found this data to be very useful to compare lap times of cars with these three tire types on the same track as an equalizer to see how much of a lap time is attributable to a stickier tire.
Similarly, I use .3 or .4 seconds to equalize a 911 with or without a wing depending on track length.
I have screenshots on my phone of a test, but I can't remember where this came from (Tire Rack ??). That said these were the results of the same driver testing the tires under the same conditions the same day on a 2.74 km track.
Pilot Sport Cup R 1 minute 8.5 seconds
Pilot Sport Cup 2: 1 minute 10.2 seconds
Pilot Sport 4S: 1 minute 12.1 seconds
IMO Cup 2 tires as factory equipment on a 911 (given that in this test they decreased the lap time by almost 2 seconds) make it seem as if you're getting more value for your money paying a more for faster car then you're actually getting.
I have found this data to be very useful to compare lap times of cars with these three tire types on the same track as an equalizer to see how much of a lap time is attributable to a stickier tire.
Similarly, I use .3 or .4 seconds to equalize a 911 with or without a wing depending on track length.
My own experience with my 992TT got me ~1.0s/min lap between the OE PZ4(NA1) and PSC2(N2) at my local track.
11-26-2021, 02:24 PM
#34
FWIW, I searched and did not find the original source of the data, but found
an Asian magazine that had translated the data from a magazine, apparently German, called "Sportscar" that I've never heard of:
To your point, CanAutM3, a GT3 RS was used for the test with a proviso: the authors (this is my translation from German) stated specifically that The Cup 2 R was never "homologated" for the GT3RS.
Here is the translation from the Asian magazine.
[Dry ground speed test]
Pilot Sport Cup 2 R: 1 minute and 08 seconds 50
Pilot Sport Cup 2: 1 minute and 10 seconds 20
Pilot Sport 4S: 1 minute and 12 seconds 10
in this 2.74 km On a long dry track-
Cup 2 R: In corners, there will be neither understeer nor tail slip. It is the tire that can best play the potential of GT3 RS. However, the fastest lap time can be achieved only in the first two laps, and then the grip starts to slowly decrease, but it can still maintain a higher grip than the ordinary Cup 2.
Cup 2: is the most balanced, with slight understeer in slow corners, slight tail slip in high-speed corners, and a stable lap speed can be maintained even after multiple laps.
PS4S: Although it is 4 seconds slower than Cup 2 R, it has the best durability. After ten laps, the tread still looks like new. The grip is moderate, and there will be no serious understeer and oversteer.
[Dry ground 100km/h-0 brake test]
Pilot Sport Cup 2 R: 28.7m
Pilot Sport Cup 2: 32.6m
Pilot Sport 4S: 33.3 meters
Emergency braking under 100 kilometers per hour warm state——
Cup 2 R：It can still maintain 28 meters after 4 consecutive emergency braking Level. What's interesting is that the degree of deceleration is so strong that even the PDK gearbox sometimes has no time to make a supplementary downshift, and even skips the middle gear directly!
Cup 2: 's performance here was not satisfactory, and Cup2 R opened a gap of nearly 4 meters.
PS4S: performance is full of surprises! She is almost the same as Cup2, and the ABS control of GT3 RS also fits this set of tires well.
[Wetland lap speed test]
Pilot Sport Cup 2 R: 2 minutes and 05 seconds 10
Pilot Sport Cup 2: 1 minute and 48 seconds 80
Pilot Sport 4S: 1 minute 42 Second 10
on another slippery track with a total length of 2.27 kilometers-
Cup 2 R: is totally another world. Try to run 5 laps to complete a lap without losing control. Whether it is in a straight line or in a curve, the vehicle will float up and sway left and right. As long as the speed exceeds 95km/h, even walking in a straight line is a problem.
Cup 2: here shows extraordinary wetland handling performance. In medium-speed corners, the front of the car responds well and the rear of the car is very stable; only in narrow corners will there be a more serious push, but it can be slightly corrected by controlling the rear of the car by the throttle. When it exceeds 120km/h, water skiing will occur completely.
PS4S: Although it is not customized for GT3 RS, it shows excellent steering response and rear axle grip in wet ground. The driver can easily take the ideal route to attack the corner, cleverly control the slip degree of the rear of the car, and the braking point can be later. Only when the vehicle speed exceeds 160km/h will complete water skiing occur.
an Asian magazine that had translated the data from a magazine, apparently German, called "Sportscar" that I've never heard of:
To your point, CanAutM3, a GT3 RS was used for the test with a proviso: the authors (this is my translation from German) stated specifically that The Cup 2 R was never "homologated" for the GT3RS.
Here is the translation from the Asian magazine.
[Dry ground speed test]
Pilot Sport Cup 2 R: 1 minute and 08 seconds 50
Pilot Sport Cup 2: 1 minute and 10 seconds 20
Pilot Sport 4S: 1 minute and 12 seconds 10
in this 2.74 km On a long dry track-
Cup 2 R: In corners, there will be neither understeer nor tail slip. It is the tire that can best play the potential of GT3 RS. However, the fastest lap time can be achieved only in the first two laps, and then the grip starts to slowly decrease, but it can still maintain a higher grip than the ordinary Cup 2.
Cup 2: is the most balanced, with slight understeer in slow corners, slight tail slip in high-speed corners, and a stable lap speed can be maintained even after multiple laps.
PS4S: Although it is 4 seconds slower than Cup 2 R, it has the best durability. After ten laps, the tread still looks like new. The grip is moderate, and there will be no serious understeer and oversteer.
[Dry ground 100km/h-0 brake test]
Pilot Sport Cup 2 R: 28.7m
Pilot Sport Cup 2: 32.6m
Pilot Sport 4S: 33.3 meters
Emergency braking under 100 kilometers per hour warm state——
Cup 2 R：It can still maintain 28 meters after 4 consecutive emergency braking Level. What's interesting is that the degree of deceleration is so strong that even the PDK gearbox sometimes has no time to make a supplementary downshift, and even skips the middle gear directly!
Cup 2: 's performance here was not satisfactory, and Cup2 R opened a gap of nearly 4 meters.
PS4S: performance is full of surprises! She is almost the same as Cup2, and the ABS control of GT3 RS also fits this set of tires well.
[Wetland lap speed test]
Pilot Sport Cup 2 R: 2 minutes and 05 seconds 10
Pilot Sport Cup 2: 1 minute and 48 seconds 80
Pilot Sport 4S: 1 minute 42 Second 10
on another slippery track with a total length of 2.27 kilometers-
Cup 2 R: is totally another world. Try to run 5 laps to complete a lap without losing control. Whether it is in a straight line or in a curve, the vehicle will float up and sway left and right. As long as the speed exceeds 95km/h, even walking in a straight line is a problem.
Cup 2: here shows extraordinary wetland handling performance. In medium-speed corners, the front of the car responds well and the rear of the car is very stable; only in narrow corners will there be a more serious push, but it can be slightly corrected by controlling the rear of the car by the throttle. When it exceeds 120km/h, water skiing will occur completely.
PS4S: Although it is not customized for GT3 RS, it shows excellent steering response and rear axle grip in wet ground. The driver can easily take the ideal route to attack the corner, cleverly control the slip degree of the rear of the car, and the braking point can be later. Only when the vehicle speed exceeds 160km/h will complete water skiing occur.
Last edited by Tompoodie; 11-26-2021 at 02:31 PM.
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11-26-2021, 02:35 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
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911therapy (11-26-2021)
11-26-2021, 02:39 PM
#36
Handling data for the 3 Michelin Sport tires on a GT3 RS
OOPS...this was the wet handling test, see subsequent post...
Last edited by Tompoodie; 11-26-2021 at 02:47 PM.
11-26-2021, 02:42 PM
#37
CanAutM3, I don't doubt you, I am merely quoting what these German testers stated in the article.
Strange that they should not know this if true. Maybe that's why I've never heard of this magazine.
I generally read Sport Auto, Auto Bild, and Auto Motor Sport Porsche 911 tests.
You can see in the photo above, in German where they say "Der von Porsche nicht fur den GT3 RS homologierte Pneu" referring to the R in the previous phrase.
Strange that they should not know this if true. Maybe that's why I've never heard of this magazine.
I generally read Sport Auto, Auto Bild, and Auto Motor Sport Porsche 911 tests.
You can see in the photo above, in German where they say "Der von Porsche nicht fur den GT3 RS homologierte Pneu" referring to the R in the previous phrase.
Last edited by Tompoodie; 11-26-2021 at 02:46 PM.
11-26-2021, 02:57 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
CanAutM3, I don't doubt you, I am merely quoting what these German testers stated in the article.
Strange that they should not know this if true. Maybe that's why I've never heard of this magazine.
I generally read Sport Auto, Auto Bild, and Auto Motor Sport Porsche 911 tests.
You can see in the photo above, in German where they say "Der von Porsche nicht fur den GT3 RS homologierte Pneu" referring to the R in the previous phrase.
Strange that they should not know this if true. Maybe that's why I've never heard of this magazine.
I generally read Sport Auto, Auto Bild, and Auto Motor Sport Porsche 911 tests.
You can see in the photo above, in German where they say "Der von Porsche nicht fur den GT3 RS homologierte Pneu" referring to the R in the previous phrase.
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Tompoodie (11-26-2021)
11-26-2021, 03:13 PM
#39
Here is the dry handling data. Sorry I couldn't edit out the junk at the upper margin.
Last edited by Tompoodie; 11-26-2021 at 03:14 PM.
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CanAutM3 (11-26-2021)
11-26-2021, 03:44 PM
#40
RL Community Team
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11-26-2021, 04:19 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
Which is in line with my earlier point about Matt's driving skill. How can a GT3, with 125 additional hp, 140lb less to schlepp and chassis optimized for track use, be only ~0.7 faster than a base Carrera on the same tire? It does not add up.
11-26-2021, 04:28 PM
#42
RL Community Team
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Thread Starter
The modest Base Carrera makes a lot more torque than the GT3 down low. Heck, the S Carreras make more torque starting at 2500 RPM than the GT3 ever makes. On a small track and on the street, torque matters. Turbos make torque happen.
11-26-2021, 04:52 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
Don’t get me wrong, I do believe the Carrera is a much better street car than the GT3, which is the reason I did not buy a GT3 for my own dual use daily/track car. But we need to remain realistic about the track performance leap the GT3 offers over a base Carrera.
11-26-2021, 06:09 PM
#44
RL Community Team
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Only way to really know for sure is matching tires on both cars at a proper track.
