Another Break-in Thread...
02-22-2021, 12:18 AM
#31
Following a reasonable break-in period, as opposed to the life of the machine following that time period, is not a zero sum function. Following a reasonable break in period and then beating the hell out of the machine without expecting a negative consequence, is not what a break in period is designed to insure against. Having some perspective for the design, methods and materials that go into a machine, are simply features often described as: knowledge, experience, maturity and respect.
02-22-2021, 02:09 AM
#32
Following a reasonable break-in period, as opposed to the life of the machine following that time period, is not a zero sum function. Following a reasonable break in period and then beating the hell out of the machine without expecting a negative consequence, is not what a break in period is designed to insure against. Having some perspective for the design, methods and materials that go into a machine, are simply features often described as: knowledge, experience, maturity and respect.
02-22-2021, 09:51 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Break In after pickup up car at PEC ATL.
So I am picking up my new car at the Porsche Center in Atlanta and then driving back to Kentucky. I thought reading this thread would help me figure out the break in procedure, but it has not. The manual says do more long trips for the first 18xx miles, but you hear not to drive at a sustained speed for too long. I have a 7 hour ride home after the delivery, all on the freeway. Not sure how to attack this! Suggestions are welcomed!!
02-22-2021, 10:20 AM
#34
Burning Brakes
So I am picking up my new car at the Porsche Center in Atlanta and then driving back to Kentucky. I thought reading this thread would help me figure out the break in procedure, but it has not. The manual says do more long trips for the first 18xx miles, but you hear not to drive at a sustained speed for too long. I have a 7 hour ride home after the delivery, all on the freeway. Not sure how to attack this! Suggestions are welcomed!!
Porsche dealers / mechanics / etc. will also give you different answers just to let you know. I stay close to 4K for the first 1K miles and then begin to slowly increase that limit until I get to the official Porsche recommendation. That has worked very well with me on several new Porsche's. Enjoy your drive, it will be a lot of fun as you get to know your 992. Hopefully you won't have happen to you what happened to me on my previous new Porsche. As I got off I-75 (taking it from Cincinnati to Tennessee) and got on a nice, back-road 4 lane, I was paced by a state trooper for over 40+ miles (talk about boring). LOL
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GoCards67 (02-22-2021)
02-22-2021, 10:28 AM
#35
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
So I am picking up my new car at the Porsche Center in Atlanta and then driving back to Kentucky. I thought reading this thread would help me figure out the break in procedure, but it has not. The manual says do more long trips for the first 18xx miles, but you hear not to drive at a sustained speed for too long. I have a 7 hour ride home after the delivery, all on the freeway. Not sure how to attack this! Suggestions are welcomed!!
I am in health care and we have a strong tradition of evidence-based practices. And pretty much everything in the car world (in so far as I've seen) is polar opposite to that and consists of people giving advice based on personal practices without a lot of data to back any of it up.
If you hear 10 different opinions about a given subject, that says it all. Heck, people are still buying and installing BMC filters even though there has never been any demonstrable proof that they increase HP (and some even report that, in and of themselves, they don't change sound much).
If this car is so well built (which it is), then I see no reason why one should to worry about driving it long distance as your first trip.
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GoCards67 (02-22-2021)
02-22-2021, 11:05 AM
#36
I've broken in my Porsches on the highway by shifting between 4th, 5th, and 6th every ten minutes or so. The key here is to vary the rpm's. True, you only have a corridor of about 2000 rpm's to play with, if you adhere to the manual's advice, but I think this complies with Porsche's recommendation to take longer trips and avoid staying at one spot on the tach. Frankly, long highway trips are a good way to eat into that break-in mileage threshold, regardless of whether you define it as 1000, 1500, or the full 2000 miles.
02-22-2021, 01:29 PM
#38
I disagree that "there is no right or wrong answer". We're talking about a machine with physical properties that can be tested and evaluated scientifically, so in a laboratory setting, the question can be answered. The problem is that no laboratory test of break-in procedure exists for public consumption (to the best of my knowledge) so we all have guesses about what those laboratory results might show. In this context, I think it makes the most sense to default to official Porsche recommendations. Porsche is not infallible, but their engineers have produced one of the best cars in the world, and I'm reluctant to dismiss their recommendation in the manual simply because it doesn't appeal to my logic as a non-engineer. Also, I think that this business about protecting new Porsche owners from the extremes of their cars during a "get acquainted" period is urban myth, as is the belief that the break-in procedure was authored by lawyers. What we're dealing with here, I believe, is just a very conservative recommendation designed to maximize the performance an engine for the life of the car.
02-22-2021, 01:35 PM
#39
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
A gear is a gear. Valve springs, pistons, etc are made up of what they are, and they are bathed in oil.
Whether or not you spin it at 5000 rpm early in its life or a few months later, wear is wear. *
I fully respect engineers, but I'm trying to get my head around the logic of why a break in period does anything other than simply defer maintenance problems to a later time (namely: 2000 miles later)
* This is opposed to biological bodies, which actually do adapt to changes in stress and demand. Physical objects have properties that are set in place, until you replace them with new ones.
Whether or not you spin it at 5000 rpm early in its life or a few months later, wear is wear. *
I fully respect engineers, but I'm trying to get my head around the logic of why a break in period does anything other than simply defer maintenance problems to a later time (namely: 2000 miles later)
* This is opposed to biological bodies, which actually do adapt to changes in stress and demand. Physical objects have properties that are set in place, until you replace them with new ones.
Last edited by Tupper; 02-22-2021 at 01:37 PM.
02-22-2021, 02:05 PM
#40
Speaking of break in - how is oil consumption on 992? Have any of you needed to add at all?
EDIT: searched. seems 992 oil consumption is minimal to zero.
EDIT: searched. seems 992 oil consumption is minimal to zero.
Last edited by dhirm5; 02-22-2021 at 02:11 PM.
02-22-2021, 03:38 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
I've followed the long-ish trip/stay below 4k/vary RPMS (by flapping the paddles a lot) for the first 1000mi and kept the RPMs below 5k (till 1500mi on the 1st one and 1800mi on the 2nd one - and then I just couldn't take it anymore). I always drive gently until the oil is warmed-up, though, always.
Is doing this going to harm the car? I doubt it. Is NOT doing this going to harm the car? I dunno, maybe. Reminds me of Pascal's wager where simple math/philosophy dictates the prudent approach in the absence of irrefutable proof.
Anecdotally (i.e. meaninglessly), I've burned no oil on three 911s in ~30k total miles (my 992 only has 500mi on it so far, but I put 17k on the 1st one and 12k on the 2nd one).
Is doing this going to harm the car? I doubt it. Is NOT doing this going to harm the car? I dunno, maybe. Reminds me of Pascal's wager where simple math/philosophy dictates the prudent approach in the absence of irrefutable proof.
Anecdotally (i.e. meaninglessly), I've burned no oil on three 911s in ~30k total miles (my 992 only has 500mi on it so far, but I put 17k on the 1st one and 12k on the 2nd one).
02-22-2021, 03:42 PM
#42
Three Wheelin'
No, it's not.
As far as I know, PAG recommends some sort of break-in period in their manuals in every part of the country. What is different is the type and duration of the break-in. Some are shorter in length (2000 km versus 2000 miles), or different type (i.e., max RPMs and what-not). But regardless, Porsche always recommends a break-in period. The key is the break-in period is a recommendation, not a requirement (like oil changes).
But let's be clear for a minute before someone jumps down my throat by quoting from the manual. There is a difference between the car requiring a period for the parts to "break in" (i.e. in Porsche speak "for the parts to be run in with each other") and whether the user is required to give the car that period to break-in. PAG says the former is required, but the latter is simply a recommendation. This is why those guys and gals at PEC ATL or LA will simply run the car from the get-go as if the break-in period is simply a recommendation, which it is.
That said, if you ask Andreas Preuninger, head of Porsche's GT dept., he will will recommend a staggered break-in procedure, along these lines:
As far as I know, PAG recommends some sort of break-in period in their manuals in every part of the country. What is different is the type and duration of the break-in. Some are shorter in length (2000 km versus 2000 miles), or different type (i.e., max RPMs and what-not). But regardless, Porsche always recommends a break-in period. The key is the break-in period is a recommendation, not a requirement (like oil changes).
But let's be clear for a minute before someone jumps down my throat by quoting from the manual. There is a difference between the car requiring a period for the parts to "break in" (i.e. in Porsche speak "for the parts to be run in with each other") and whether the user is required to give the car that period to break-in. PAG says the former is required, but the latter is simply a recommendation. This is why those guys and gals at PEC ATL or LA will simply run the car from the get-go as if the break-in period is simply a recommendation, which it is.
That said, if you ask Andreas Preuninger, head of Porsche's GT dept., he will will recommend a staggered break-in procedure, along these lines:
for the first 500 kilometres or 300 miles, don’t drive the car car ever over 5000 rpm, never; from then on, every 200 kilometres, up the rpms by 500, so you end up at 1300 or1400 kilometres (or 800 or 900 miles) at the threshold before you really go full throttle
This is pretty much what I did. It feels somewhat natural to be honest. 2000 miles below 4k (or whatever) seems a bit crazy. To *me*.
02-22-2021, 04:33 PM
#43
I came across this from a couple of years ago. I think it was in a PCA publication. Presuming this wasn't made up as a joke, it seems to make some sense.
Since I was a young boy, I have always wondered why it takes so long to break-in a new engine–especially those built by Porsche. Most people driving new cars also do not fully understand the real reason for the break-in period. Are you one of them? A good friend of mine just picked up his brand new 911 Turbo and complained about the break-in period taking so long (2,000 miles, not exceeding 4,000 RPM). We have talked about this issue many times over the past few years, always coming up with many scenarios of why such a long break-in period is required. However, we have never agreed on a reasonable answer. Well, you are about to find out the reason Porsche requires the break-in period it has today. The answer comes directly from the engineers at Porsche.
I was on a recent Porsche factory tour and was watching an engine being built and dyno tested. Each engine is built by a single person on a moving production line. Porsche feels that they can obtain better quality control with one person building an individual engine from start to finish. In addition, each engine builder can assemble every type of production engine that Porsche produces and every gasoline engine is still built at the Stuttgart factory. It takes 2-3 ½ hours to assemble each engine, depending on the type. Afterwards, the completed engines are either used in the cars produced at the Zuffenhausen factory or are boxed up and shipped to Leipzig (for the Cayenne and Panamera) or off to Finland (for the Boxster and Cayman).
Before all of the parts are assembled for a particular engine; the pistons, connecting rods and valves are individually weighed and grouped together using similar weights to optimize performance. They are put onto a cart that moves along the assembly line with each engine block. This cart contains every part required to assemble that particular engine which includes each washer, nut, bolt, bearing etc… As a result, if any part is left in the cart at the end of the assembly line, then—Houston, we have a problem!At the end of the assembly line, the engine is filled with Mobil 1 Synthetic Oil. Each engine is then dry run (without fuel), pressure tested and checked for leaks. Every car coming off the production line is also run on a rolling road dyno. This enables all cars and engines to be tested at highway speed before they leave the factory.
Some of the engines are also randomly selected to be tested on a dyno stand before they are installed into the car. The assembly plant has 5 dyno rooms located directly off the production line. The day I was on the tour, there were around 40 engines lined up on dollies. Some of these engines were in the process of being tested for quality control purposes. Once the engine is bolted onto the dyno, warm water is circulated throughout the engine to bring it up to temperature. The operator then starts the engine and checks for the correct pressures and temperature before the actual test begins. Engine speed is then increased in RPM steps to about 80% of its red line (the engine’s maximum RPM). The entire engine run takes around 30 minutes. Since each engine type (Turbo, GT3, Boxster or Carrera…) has a different red line, all of the data is recorded and analyzed after the test is completed.After the engine is turned off, the engine is again checked for seal leaks and its actual HP is compared to its advertised HP. To pass final inspection, the engine has to develop, at a minimum, 100% of what its advertised HP rating is. Also, the engine cannot produce more than 5% over that same advertised rating. If the engine falls out of those parameters, the engine is rejected and then torn down to determine why it did not deliver the anticipated HP.
When the test was completed, a Porsche engineer came over to review the results. I couldn’t resist asking the question that I had been searching to find an answer to for all these years. I asked “why does Porsche feel it is safe for a new engine to run at nearly full throttle in the factory, while the customer must keep the engine speed to no more than 4,000 RPM for a 2,000 mile break-in period?” I thought that was a logical question and if I do say so myself-well stated! The engineer replied, “Herr Koop, you do not understand (that I already knew). When we do our engine test, the metals inside the engine never reach the temperatures they would when driven on the street since the test session is fairly short. In other words, the bearings, pistons and cylinders never get a chance to thermally expand to their maximum. Therefore, there is little wear on the moving components. But when you drive a car on the street, the engine parts expand considerably more because of the heat being generated from the engine running for an extended period of time. No matter how tight the tolerances are, there is always a slight amount of expansion in the material. The moving parts can wear quickly if exposed to excessive heat and not always in a uniform way. We also constantly vary the speed and allow the engine to run at both high and low RPM’s”.
“Porsche wants the engine to break-in slowly, which means it needs to maintain a lower operating temperature (below 4,000 RPM) and to allow all parts to adjust (wear-in) within their own thermal expansion parameters. This is also the reason why Porsche wants the owner to vary the RPM throughout the break-in period; therefore the engine doesn’t get use to one operating temperature range”.
“Porsche has been using Mobil 1 Oil since the early 90’s. With its superior lubricating properties, it takes many miles of driving (without getting the engine too hot) before the components actually seat (or break-in). Porsche’s own tests reveal that after 2,000 miles have been driven, all of the moving parts have had a chance to wear into their adjacent surfaces and then an increase in engine RPM is permissible.” I replied, “JA DAS SOUNDS GUT, when you explain it that way, it makes a lot of sense.” I thought to myself “You Dummkopf, why didn’t you think of that”.
The engineer commented that there were many other moving parts other than the engine that needed break-in as well. Wheel bearings, constant velocity joints, tires, brakes and transmission were just some of the other components that were mentioned.
So breaking it down into layman’s terminology, it all comes down to; higher RPM equates to more heat, which leads to greater expansion. For a new engine, that can mean uneven wear on certain parts if excessive heat is allowed to build up. In Porsche’s opinion, the thermal expansion of different parts and various materials need time to adjust to one another. Porsche’s time frame for that to occur is calculated to be 2,000 miles, with the heat restriction being 4,000 RPM. So simple; who woulda thunk.
Many experienced Porsche engine builders and experts on the Flat-6 engine state that the peak power of a Porsche engine is developed around the 20,000 mile mark. This coincides with the principle of what the Porsche engineer was telling me; “Break it in correctly and the engine will last longer and perform better”.
It only took me 45 years to find out the real answer to this puzzling question. After I returned home, I explained this to my friend. As for our ongoing debate, we now feel a solution to this riddle has finally been reached. Neither one of us had the answer to this complex question totally figured out, but we were on the right path! I am finally able to resolve another one of my life’s unanswered mysteries and now it’s been crossed off the list. I hope this helps explain one of your unanswered questions in the car world as well.
Since I was a young boy, I have always wondered why it takes so long to break-in a new engine–especially those built by Porsche. Most people driving new cars also do not fully understand the real reason for the break-in period. Are you one of them? A good friend of mine just picked up his brand new 911 Turbo and complained about the break-in period taking so long (2,000 miles, not exceeding 4,000 RPM). We have talked about this issue many times over the past few years, always coming up with many scenarios of why such a long break-in period is required. However, we have never agreed on a reasonable answer. Well, you are about to find out the reason Porsche requires the break-in period it has today. The answer comes directly from the engineers at Porsche.
I was on a recent Porsche factory tour and was watching an engine being built and dyno tested. Each engine is built by a single person on a moving production line. Porsche feels that they can obtain better quality control with one person building an individual engine from start to finish. In addition, each engine builder can assemble every type of production engine that Porsche produces and every gasoline engine is still built at the Stuttgart factory. It takes 2-3 ½ hours to assemble each engine, depending on the type. Afterwards, the completed engines are either used in the cars produced at the Zuffenhausen factory or are boxed up and shipped to Leipzig (for the Cayenne and Panamera) or off to Finland (for the Boxster and Cayman).
Before all of the parts are assembled for a particular engine; the pistons, connecting rods and valves are individually weighed and grouped together using similar weights to optimize performance. They are put onto a cart that moves along the assembly line with each engine block. This cart contains every part required to assemble that particular engine which includes each washer, nut, bolt, bearing etc… As a result, if any part is left in the cart at the end of the assembly line, then—Houston, we have a problem!At the end of the assembly line, the engine is filled with Mobil 1 Synthetic Oil. Each engine is then dry run (without fuel), pressure tested and checked for leaks. Every car coming off the production line is also run on a rolling road dyno. This enables all cars and engines to be tested at highway speed before they leave the factory.
Some of the engines are also randomly selected to be tested on a dyno stand before they are installed into the car. The assembly plant has 5 dyno rooms located directly off the production line. The day I was on the tour, there were around 40 engines lined up on dollies. Some of these engines were in the process of being tested for quality control purposes. Once the engine is bolted onto the dyno, warm water is circulated throughout the engine to bring it up to temperature. The operator then starts the engine and checks for the correct pressures and temperature before the actual test begins. Engine speed is then increased in RPM steps to about 80% of its red line (the engine’s maximum RPM). The entire engine run takes around 30 minutes. Since each engine type (Turbo, GT3, Boxster or Carrera…) has a different red line, all of the data is recorded and analyzed after the test is completed.After the engine is turned off, the engine is again checked for seal leaks and its actual HP is compared to its advertised HP. To pass final inspection, the engine has to develop, at a minimum, 100% of what its advertised HP rating is. Also, the engine cannot produce more than 5% over that same advertised rating. If the engine falls out of those parameters, the engine is rejected and then torn down to determine why it did not deliver the anticipated HP.
When the test was completed, a Porsche engineer came over to review the results. I couldn’t resist asking the question that I had been searching to find an answer to for all these years. I asked “why does Porsche feel it is safe for a new engine to run at nearly full throttle in the factory, while the customer must keep the engine speed to no more than 4,000 RPM for a 2,000 mile break-in period?” I thought that was a logical question and if I do say so myself-well stated! The engineer replied, “Herr Koop, you do not understand (that I already knew). When we do our engine test, the metals inside the engine never reach the temperatures they would when driven on the street since the test session is fairly short. In other words, the bearings, pistons and cylinders never get a chance to thermally expand to their maximum. Therefore, there is little wear on the moving components. But when you drive a car on the street, the engine parts expand considerably more because of the heat being generated from the engine running for an extended period of time. No matter how tight the tolerances are, there is always a slight amount of expansion in the material. The moving parts can wear quickly if exposed to excessive heat and not always in a uniform way. We also constantly vary the speed and allow the engine to run at both high and low RPM’s”.
“Porsche wants the engine to break-in slowly, which means it needs to maintain a lower operating temperature (below 4,000 RPM) and to allow all parts to adjust (wear-in) within their own thermal expansion parameters. This is also the reason why Porsche wants the owner to vary the RPM throughout the break-in period; therefore the engine doesn’t get use to one operating temperature range”.
“Porsche has been using Mobil 1 Oil since the early 90’s. With its superior lubricating properties, it takes many miles of driving (without getting the engine too hot) before the components actually seat (or break-in). Porsche’s own tests reveal that after 2,000 miles have been driven, all of the moving parts have had a chance to wear into their adjacent surfaces and then an increase in engine RPM is permissible.” I replied, “JA DAS SOUNDS GUT, when you explain it that way, it makes a lot of sense.” I thought to myself “You Dummkopf, why didn’t you think of that”.
The engineer commented that there were many other moving parts other than the engine that needed break-in as well. Wheel bearings, constant velocity joints, tires, brakes and transmission were just some of the other components that were mentioned.
So breaking it down into layman’s terminology, it all comes down to; higher RPM equates to more heat, which leads to greater expansion. For a new engine, that can mean uneven wear on certain parts if excessive heat is allowed to build up. In Porsche’s opinion, the thermal expansion of different parts and various materials need time to adjust to one another. Porsche’s time frame for that to occur is calculated to be 2,000 miles, with the heat restriction being 4,000 RPM. So simple; who woulda thunk.
Many experienced Porsche engine builders and experts on the Flat-6 engine state that the peak power of a Porsche engine is developed around the 20,000 mile mark. This coincides with the principle of what the Porsche engineer was telling me; “Break it in correctly and the engine will last longer and perform better”.
It only took me 45 years to find out the real answer to this puzzling question. After I returned home, I explained this to my friend. As for our ongoing debate, we now feel a solution to this riddle has finally been reached. Neither one of us had the answer to this complex question totally figured out, but we were on the right path! I am finally able to resolve another one of my life’s unanswered mysteries and now it’s been crossed off the list. I hope this helps explain one of your unanswered questions in the car world as well.
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Bluehighways (02-23-2021)
02-22-2021, 04:46 PM
#44
... some people have useless nightmares about break-in procedures ...
... some people are just driving and enjoying their beautiful car ...
... and the latter have a good laugh about the former ...
... some people are just driving and enjoying their beautiful car ...
... and the latter have a good laugh about the former ...
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Tupper (02-22-2021)
02-22-2021, 04:53 PM
#45
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Many experienced Porsche engine builders and experts on the Flat-6 engine state that the peak power of a Porsche engine is developed around the 20,000 mile mark. This coincides with the principle of what the Porsche engineer was telling me; “Break it in correctly and the engine will last longer and perform better”.