What a difference the last 20 years has made on the 911
07-30-2018, 02:54 PM
#16
"Having said all of that I think Porsche have/are entering an unusual phase and I think they have to be careful with respect to marketing of a vehicle like the Taycan - its not a sports car, it would be a huge mistake to pretend it is one."
Porsche calls every model in their line-up a sports car, Panamera, Macan and Cayenne included. Been a few years since these models came on the market and the company didn't go under because of them.
Porsche calls every model in their line-up a sports car, Panamera, Macan and Cayenne included. Been a few years since these models came on the market and the company didn't go under because of them.
07-31-2018, 01:18 AM
#17
"Having said all of that I think Porsche have/are entering an unusual phase and I think they have to be careful with respect to marketing of a vehicle like the Taycan - its not a sports car, it would be a huge mistake to pretend it is one."
Porsche calls every model in their line-up a sports car, Panamera, Macan and Cayenne included. Been a few years since these models came on the market and the company didn't go under because of them.
Porsche calls every model in their line-up a sports car, Panamera, Macan and Cayenne included. Been a few years since these models came on the market and the company didn't go under because of them.
Why would I want to "flog" a Macan/Q5 on a track or through the twisties..........its an SUV with (where I live) a silly price of $130k. The top of the line Q5 is 35k cheaper. I guess people over here are dumb enough to pay for a badge.
Heavy cars do not a sports car make - only a marketing department can square that circle
Last edited by groundhog; 07-31-2018 at 01:33 AM.
07-31-2018, 09:31 AM
#18
Race Car
Macan owners generally don't want or need to flog their cars at the track. Of course a Macan is not a sports car. I wouldn't take mine to a track driving event and more than I would use my 991 as winter beater.
Porsche runs *marketing* events at tracks where customers are invited to drive the full line of cars just to get an idea of their capabilities. My experience with a Macan was that it was far more capable than expected- and way more capable than anyone who has not driven one on a proper track would imagine. I bought one to replace a daily driver sedan after that. I also drove a Panamera Turbo Hybrid Sport Tourismo at the event - that's a not-a-sports-car too. I could not imagine tracking one if I owned it, but now appreciate what Porsche can do with a heavyweight. But we knew that from the 918.
I have also driven an SQ5. It is a great SUV too-at prices close to the Macan S here. If after driving both, if one cannot feel the difference, then it is not an issue what one buys.
Porsche runs *marketing* events at tracks where customers are invited to drive the full line of cars just to get an idea of their capabilities. My experience with a Macan was that it was far more capable than expected- and way more capable than anyone who has not driven one on a proper track would imagine. I bought one to replace a daily driver sedan after that. I also drove a Panamera Turbo Hybrid Sport Tourismo at the event - that's a not-a-sports-car too. I could not imagine tracking one if I owned it, but now appreciate what Porsche can do with a heavyweight. But we knew that from the 918.
I have also driven an SQ5. It is a great SUV too-at prices close to the Macan S here. If after driving both, if one cannot feel the difference, then it is not an issue what one buys.
07-31-2018, 10:52 AM
#19
07-31-2018, 08:56 PM
#20
I guess it depends on the angle - for example as someone who buys sports cars from Porsche it appears to be a mistake whereas from the point of view of a general buyer its a sales pitch that may work on that type of buyer. The overall trend tho is one of brand dilution. Very much moving in the direction of Benz and BMW where virtually every car in the line up has an M pack or AMG pack. The greater the spread the greater the dilution.
08-01-2018, 08:47 AM
#22
I struggle with that - firstly a Macan is mainly an Audi, secondly its not a sports car, thirdly dealers are now fronts for SUV sales. My personal view is Porsche need to develop something like a Porsche premium network that deals purely in sports cars and the Panamera range.
08-01-2018, 10:50 AM
#23
Thanks for posting .
I think you have to look at this in the round - I have quite a few of these hard backed model descriptions.
Here are a few lines for the current Series 2 991 911
"The dream of the sports car" . "We like to start from the front. In the lead" . "An icon? certainly but only because we continue its development" "How do we defend our position? By always being one idea ahead" . or how about this one from the 981 hand book "How do we nurture our relationship with the driver? By purposefully strengthening our bond with the road."
All the same sentiments are shared throughout these handbooks - in effect its all about the dream and the drive. Like all good marketing, and Porsche are very good at it, they tap into ones perception and nostalgia buttons.
Do we spend our time climbing mountains, racing around Le Mans or the Nordschleife whilst keeping an eye on our next ocean racing meet - short answer no . There are many, many historic cars out there - in fact historic racing is great fun - however the fun quotient only lasts for an hour here or an hour there on a balmy summer day. . Perhaps as we get older its easier to look back in time rather than forward.
Having said all of that I think Porsche have/are entering an unusual phase and I think they have to be careful with respect to marketing of a vehicle like the Taycan - its not a sports car, it would be a huge mistake to pretend it is one. Likewise they they have to get their execution and delivery together - real mistakes have been made e.g. GT3 991.1 engine (finger follower oiling and design defect) and GT4 third gear failure situation (this is plain cheap engineering e.g. not splined and peened). What about the next GT4 - that will be a real bell weather.
Superimposed on this is brand dilution e.g. Macan, its a warmed over Q5, we all know that - its also not a sports car that "handles like a cayman" (they really do use this line), its a small price point SUV with poor rear head room and a branding label.
The knock on effect of the latter is felt in spades at dealerships - e.g. service technicians that barely know 911s (their time is spent with drudge servicing Macans and Cayennes) to salespeople who seem to have a poor understanding of the sports car market and the products they sell. I think the 992 will turn out ok simply because its got a great engine and Porsche have a few engineering tricks they can apply.
After that I think they'll be in trouble - simply because sports cars aren't big sellers - and most younger guys I meet seem to think driving round an xbox is more fun than actually sticking a helmet on and having the man parts to do it for real.
.I think you have to look at this in the round - I have quite a few of these hard backed model descriptions.
Here are a few lines for the current Series 2 991 911
"The dream of the sports car" . "We like to start from the front. In the lead" . "An icon? certainly but only because we continue its development" "How do we defend our position? By always being one idea ahead" . or how about this one from the 981 hand book "How do we nurture our relationship with the driver? By purposefully strengthening our bond with the road."
All the same sentiments are shared throughout these handbooks - in effect its all about the dream and the drive. Like all good marketing, and Porsche are very good at it, they tap into ones perception and nostalgia buttons.
Do we spend our time climbing mountains, racing around Le Mans or the Nordschleife whilst keeping an eye on our next ocean racing meet - short answer no
. There are many, many historic cars out there - in fact historic racing is great fun - however the fun quotient only lasts for an hour here or an hour there on a balmy summer day. . Perhaps as we get older its easier to look back in time rather than forward.Having said all of that I think Porsche have/are entering an unusual phase and I think they have to be careful with respect to marketing of a vehicle like the Taycan - its not a sports car, it would be a huge mistake to pretend it is one. Likewise they they have to get their execution and delivery together - real mistakes have been made e.g. GT3 991.1 engine (finger follower oiling and design defect) and GT4 third gear failure situation (this is plain cheap engineering e.g. not splined and peened). What about the next GT4 - that will be a real bell weather.
Superimposed on this is brand dilution e.g. Macan, its a warmed over Q5, we all know that - its also not a sports car that "handles like a cayman" (they really do use this line), its a small price point SUV with poor rear head room and a branding label.
The knock on effect of the latter is felt in spades at dealerships - e.g. service technicians that barely know 911s (their time is spent with drudge servicing Macans and Cayennes) to salespeople who seem to have a poor understanding of the sports car market and the products they sell. I think the 992 will turn out ok simply because its got a great engine and Porsche have a few engineering tricks they can apply.
After that I think they'll be in trouble - simply because sports cars aren't big sellers - and most younger guys I meet seem to think driving round an xbox is more fun than actually sticking a helmet on and having the man parts to do it for real.
I agree 100%.
Brand dilution exists the instant that platform sharing occurs across name plates.
What I have never understood is WHY a company that exclusively made sports cars for some 55 years felt that they needed to completely contradict themselves by producing SUV's. I'm so tired of the " they needed to sell them to survive " argument because it simply is not true. The truth is that they produced SUV's to make more money by going for the low hanging fruit and had they chosen to remain strict to their principals would have simply scaled down if they were in financial trouble. The 911's and Boxsters would have always sold and with a few spin offs aside they could have easily survived as a smaller boutique manufacture which is exactly how they managed for the half century before.
Last edited by limegreen; 08-01-2018 at 11:49 AM.
08-01-2018, 12:12 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by blepski
I agree 100%.
Brand dilution exists the instant that platform sharing occurs across name plates.
What I have never understood is WHY a company that exclusively made sports cars for some 55 years felt that they needed to completely contradict themselves by producing SUV's. I'm so tired of the " they needed to sell them to survive " argument because it simply is not true. The truth is that they produced SUV's to make more money by going for the low hanging fruit and had they chosen to remain strict to their principals would have simply scaled down if they were in financial trouble. The 911's and Boxsters would have always sold and with a few spin offs aside they could have easily survived as a smaller boutique manufacture which is exactly how they managed for the half century before.
Brand dilution exists the instant that platform sharing occurs across name plates.
What I have never understood is WHY a company that exclusively made sports cars for some 55 years felt that they needed to completely contradict themselves by producing SUV's. I'm so tired of the " they needed to sell them to survive " argument because it simply is not true. The truth is that they produced SUV's to make more money by going for the low hanging fruit and had they chosen to remain strict to their principals would have simply scaled down if they were in financial trouble. The 911's and Boxsters would have always sold and with a few spin offs aside they could have easily survived as a smaller boutique manufacture which is exactly how they managed for the half century before.
Also, why should a real enthusiast care what else Porsche manufactures besides "a true sports car?" Did it bother you when Porsche made farming vehicles? Or that Porsche has sold sunglasses for decades (even 20 years ago during "the good ole days)"? Or that Rolls Royce makes airplane engines? As long as Porsche continues to make a sports car that suits my needs, I'll continue to buy it. Ironically, it seems like some of the individuals longing for the 911 of 20 years ago are more concerned about mystique than the actual vehicle. I really don't care what else Porsche makes. I'm in it for the driving experience not for some perception of what the brand name means. If Porsche fails to produce such a car, then I'll move on to some other vehicle that I find most desirable at the time.
08-01-2018, 12:44 PM
#25
On what data do you base your conclusion? Do you have any idea whether or not Porsche could have survived while producing only sports cars? Sounds like a lot of conjecture to me.
Also, why should a real enthusiast care what else Porsche manufactures besides "a true sports car?" Did it bother you when Porsche made farming vehicles? Or that Porsche has sold sunglasses for decades (even 20 years ago during "the good ole days)"? Or that Rolls Royce makes airplane engines? As long as Porsche continues to make a sports car that suits my needs, I'll continue to buy it. Ironically, it seems like some of the individuals longing for the 911 of 20 years ago are more concerned about mystique than the actual vehicle. I really don't care what else Porsche makes. I'm in it for the driving experience not for some perception of what the brand name means. If Porsche fails to produce such a car, then I'll move on to some other vehicle that I find most desirable at the time.
Also, why should a real enthusiast care what else Porsche manufactures besides "a true sports car?" Did it bother you when Porsche made farming vehicles? Or that Porsche has sold sunglasses for decades (even 20 years ago during "the good ole days)"? Or that Rolls Royce makes airplane engines? As long as Porsche continues to make a sports car that suits my needs, I'll continue to buy it. Ironically, it seems like some of the individuals longing for the 911 of 20 years ago are more concerned about mystique than the actual vehicle. I really don't care what else Porsche makes. I'm in it for the driving experience not for some perception of what the brand name means. If Porsche fails to produce such a car, then I'll move on to some other vehicle that I find most desirable at the time.
I certainly appreciate your comments and opinions on this but please understand this is not a trial , it's an enthusiast discussion forum where opinion is the norm. Are there physical documents with supporting facts somewhere about Porsche's financial trouble in the 90's? Sure , but no one from the public will ever see it and the grumblings of their head brass in the early 2000's can be taken with a grain of salt as they had their own agenda just the same. What you can find with research is that it was the Boxster and and 996 that saved Porsche from financial ruin NOT the Cayenne that was produced on the prosperity of the redesigned sports cars that pulled the company back up.
To get your head around where I'm coming from look at other examples of boutique sports car companies that have managed to stay afloat without succumbing to one of the most senseless trends in the automotive industry ( my opinion of course) which is the "sports" SUV. For the time being anyways....
Opening up to the mass market appeal is what , again in my opinion, steered the company into the mainstream with the sports car's unfortunately falling into that same mindset. Not convinced? Ask yourself why the current and future 911 exterior and interior styling now mimics the mass market appealing Panamera , Macan and Cayennes.
What I miss is a time ( the 90's) when Porsche's did not have or really care for mass market appeal and their products reflected that. My 991 is a great car and in an industry now filled with watered down products it still stands above , but it's so far from the 993 and even the 996 that it's hard to draw anything but basic parallels from what they used to be and the 992 will be even further removed. That's what this thread was all about.
I also don't agree with your parallel to Porsche design or tractors, your missing the point as neither of these or any of the other examples cited have anything to do with walking into a Porsche dealer showroom flooded with "sport" SUV's rather than the sports cars they made their name with.
I do agree that so long as Porsche produces good sports cars I will be a buyer of them , however, the mystique is part of the experience and the experience of owning a Porsche for many like myself that have owned them for decades is just as important as the drive.
Last edited by limegreen; 08-01-2018 at 02:50 PM.
08-01-2018, 11:31 PM
#27
I still fail to see what the big deal is about Porsche venturing into the SUV/sedan world. Some car enthusiasts need a car that has more room than a 911. Wouldn't you rather a Porschefile be able to purchase a well engineered, beautifully performing Macan, Cayenne or Panamera than have to settle for a lesser car? Besides, isn't it nice that one can buy a well equipped 911GTS for $150,000? If Porsche didn't offer sedans and SUVs, your 911 would probably cost north of $200,000. Should Porsche also stop making Boxsters and Caymans? What's wrong with a car company offering a range of high quality, high performance products as long as quality and performance isn't compromised? I have two 911s in my garage right now. Regardless of what other types of vehicles Porsche manufactures, they both look fantastic, handle perfectly, and are crazy fast. I can drive them all year round, fit plenty of stuff in them, and not worry about reliability. The fun of driving them is not affected one bit by the other cars in Porsche's stable. My first 911 was a 1987 Targa, and while it was a very nice car, there is no way I'd trade my 991.2 for one. Time marches on. I'm looking forward to taking delivery of a 992 for my 65th birthday next year.
08-01-2018, 11:45 PM
#28
Race Car
"How is the 991 "so far from" the 993 in a negative way, and how should it be, ideally?"
To me a key negative is size. I appreciate how much safer a 991 is, but when i get into an air cooled 911 after driving my 991 at the speeds it needs to be exciting, I remember how much more road is available for placing a smaller car, and how much fun that provides, even at sensible speeds. My 987 Boxster RS-60 provided more of that feeling than the 991, despite being just few inches smaller. A Miata could offer that same feel and fun.
On the other hand, I am happier on longer trips on the interstate in the 991 (and much as I hate to admit it, in the Macan). That won't stop me from driving the 991 o Rennsport from Maryland in September. I used to do long trips in the 78 SC I bought new and kept for 30 years, but surely wouldn't want to go both ways across country with it any more. I admit age (mine and the car) is a factor.
How should it be, ideally? I'd bet a Singer would do it, and volunteer to do a comparison.
To me a key negative is size. I appreciate how much safer a 991 is, but when i get into an air cooled 911 after driving my 991 at the speeds it needs to be exciting, I remember how much more road is available for placing a smaller car, and how much fun that provides, even at sensible speeds. My 987 Boxster RS-60 provided more of that feeling than the 991, despite being just few inches smaller. A Miata could offer that same feel and fun.
On the other hand, I am happier on longer trips on the interstate in the 991 (and much as I hate to admit it, in the Macan). That won't stop me from driving the 991 o Rennsport from Maryland in September. I used to do long trips in the 78 SC I bought new and kept for 30 years, but surely wouldn't want to go both ways across country with it any more. I admit age (mine and the car) is a factor.
How should it be, ideally? I'd bet a Singer would do it, and volunteer to do a comparison.
08-02-2018, 01:24 PM
#29
Having experienced several Porsches plus sports cars from other makes, I’ve learned to admire Porsche even more. Sure, its not as exclusive as say a Ferrari. But comparing build quality between them is just night and day.
As for Porsche “selling out” by making SUV’s and sedans , I say, let them. If it helps with development costs of sports cars, why not? I also dont mind if my 911 shares many interior parts with say my Macan. They are totally different cars anyway.
I also appreciare how each generation is much better than the last one. I was very happy with my 997 TurboS as it was one of the top models of its generation. But compared with even a regular 991.2 Carrera S, it is just no match in every way except a bit on top end power. So I can just imagine the improvements 992’s will bring.
As they say, when asked whats your favorite sports car in your garage, the answer is “the next one”.
As for Porsche “selling out” by making SUV’s and sedans , I say, let them. If it helps with development costs of sports cars, why not? I also dont mind if my 911 shares many interior parts with say my Macan. They are totally different cars anyway.
I also appreciare how each generation is much better than the last one. I was very happy with my 997 TurboS as it was one of the top models of its generation. But compared with even a regular 991.2 Carrera S, it is just no match in every way except a bit on top end power. So I can just imagine the improvements 992’s will bring.
As they say, when asked whats your favorite sports car in your garage, the answer is “the next one”.
Last edited by speed_kills; 08-02-2018 at 01:43 PM.
08-02-2018, 02:01 PM
#30
If Porsche made SUV's I could certainly appreciate more of the points in this thread. The reality is the Porsche does not make SUV's.
Oh, they sell SUV's - rebadged Audi's and VW's but don't kid yourself that the Macan and Cayenne are Porsche designed, engineered and built products.
That is where brand dilution comes in - warmed over leftovers from the corporate chassis and parts bins.
Oh, they sell SUV's - rebadged Audi's and VW's but don't kid yourself that the Macan and Cayenne are Porsche designed, engineered and built products.
That is where brand dilution comes in - warmed over leftovers from the corporate chassis and parts bins.