Prosit! I’ve recently entered the market to buy a new or CPO 992.1 Turbo S Coupe. It won’t be my first Porsche or 911 but my first Turbo. I’ve extensively driven the model as well as driven a buddy’s 992 GT3 and dealer test-driven the new 992.2 GTS and have come to the conclusion that for my use case subjective happiness, the 992.1 Turbo S is where it’s at. Specifically, I do not want the 992.2 hybrid drivetrain, even though it’ll be faster/better/smarter/prettier.

I quickly came to realize that sifting through the 992 TTS forum was going to be a humongous task, if I wanted simple and direct answers to a few key questions:
- What should I expect in terms of pricing? How much would ADM or discounts be?
- What are the key options to select that maintain resale value? What does the rennlist community like and dislike about them?
- What is a good negotiation tactic and reach-out strategy to a host of local dealerships?
- …

Instead of spending hours researching and reading dozens if not close to a 100 threads, I went the ChatGPT route (using GPT-4o model as well as o1-preview model). I simply used the rennlist search function, printed out 100s of threads, fed them to GPT in the form of PDFs, and asked it my above questions.

However, I don’t want to blindly trust ChatGPT and also felt that some of its answers would be at least perceived as controversial here. So now I’m giving you guys what ChatGPT says and asking for your opinions to provide a more recent market view. Ultimately, with over 300+ 992.1 Turbo/Turbo S models listed on cars.com as of today, I feel like something is off with the market. There is way more Turbo S for sale than other 992 trims. Is there maybe a buyer market opening up in the next 2-6 months that will undo the average ADMs and get to somewhat reasonable below MSRP offers on the trim, especially with the 992.2 around the corner?

Here is what ChatGPT said. Skip down to the question of interest.

On 992.1 Turbo S vs 992.2 Carrera 4 GTS:
”911 Turbo S:

• Ultimate Performance: The Turbo S is recognized as the pinnacle of the 911 lineup in terms of raw power and acceleration. Its turbocharged engine delivers exceptional speed, and advanced technologies like active aerodynamics and rear-wheel steering enhance its capabilities.
• Technological Advancements: The model is lauded for its cutting-edge features and engineering marvels, which contribute to its supercar-like performance.
• Luxury and Exclusivity: Beyond performance, the Turbo S offers a higher level of luxury and is often seen as a status symbol within the Porsche community.

General Consensus:

• Different Purposes: The consensus is that while the Turbo S is the choice for those seeking the utmost in performance and are willing to invest significantly more, the GTS appeals to drivers who desire a high-performance vehicle that is still practical for daily use.
• Personal Preference: Many forum users emphasize that the decision between the two often comes down to personal preference regarding driving experience, budget, and intended use.
• Appreciation for Both: There’s a shared respect for both models on Rennlist. Members recognize that each car excels in its own right and that either choice would satisfy a Porsche enthusiast’s desire for performance and quality.

In summary, Rennlist members generally agree that the 911 Carrera 4 GTS offers a more engaging and value-oriented driving experience, while the 911 Turbo S provides unparalleled performance and advanced features at a premium price point.”

On value retention of the 2 models:
“Reasons Why the Turbo S Holds Its Value Better:

1. Exclusivity and Prestige:
• Flagship Model: The Turbo S is often considered the pinnacle of the 911 lineup, featuring the highest performance specs and the most advanced technology.
• Desirability: Its status as a top-tier model makes it more sought after in the secondary market, which helps maintain its value.
2. Limited Production Numbers:
• Rarity: The Turbo S is produced in smaller quantities compared to the GTS models. This scarcity can lead to higher demand among used car buyers.
• Collectibility: Limited availability enhances its appeal to collectors and enthusiasts who are willing to pay a premium.
3. Superior Performance:
• Higher Specs: With greater horsepower, torque, and acceleration figures, the Turbo S offers a level of performance that sets it apart.
• Technological Advancements: Features like advanced aerodynamics, ceramic brakes, and rear-wheel steering contribute to its higher resale value.
4. Brand Image:
• Iconic Status: The Turbo S has a storied history and is often associated with Porsche’s engineering excellence, further boosting its market value.

Considerations for the Carrera 4 GTS:

• Strong but Less Resilient Value Retention:
• The GTS models are praised for their balance of performance and practicality, making them popular choices.
• However, they are produced in larger numbers, which can lead to slightly higher depreciation rates compared to the Turbo S.
• Market Saturation:
• Greater availability of used GTS models may lead to more competitive pricing in the resale market.

Additional Insights from Forum Members:

• Depreciation Factors:
• Condition and Mileage: Both models’ resale values are significantly influenced by their condition, maintenance history, and mileage.
• Optional Features: Well-equipped cars with desirable options (like the must-have features previously mentioned) tend to hold value better.
• Market Trends: Economic conditions and shifts in consumer preferences can impact resale values.
• Ownership Costs:
• Maintenance Expenses: The Turbo S may have higher maintenance and repair costs due to its advanced features, which some buyers consider when purchasing used.

Conclusion:

While both the Porsche 911 Turbo S and the Carrera 4 GTS are exceptional vehicles with strong resale values, the 911 Turbo S generally holds its value better according to Rennlist forum members. This is largely due to its exclusivity, superior performance, limited production numbers, and iconic status within the Porsche lineup. If retaining value is a primary concern, the Turbo S appears to be the preferred choice among enthusiasts.”

On the cooling economic climate in relation to Turbo S prices:
“Considering the cooling economic climate and anticipated rate cuts by the Federal Reserve, it’s possible that prices for the Certified Pre-Owned (CPO) market of the Porsche 911 Turbo S may soften. Several factors contribute to this potential trend:

1. Cooling Economic Climate

• Reduced Consumer Spending:
• Luxury Goods Impact: Economic slowdowns often lead consumers to reduce spending on luxury items, including high-end vehicles like the Turbo S.
• Decreased Demand: A cautious approach to large expenditures can lower demand in the CPO luxury car market.
• Increased Supply:
• Asset Liquidation: Owners might sell luxury assets to improve liquidity, increasing the supply of used Turbo S models.
• Market Saturation: An influx of vehicles can lead to more competitive pricing among sellers.

2. Anticipated Federal Reserve Rate Cuts

• Lower Financing Costs:
• Affordable Loans: Rate cuts can reduce interest rates on auto loans, making it more affordable to finance a vehicle purchase.
• Stimulated Demand: Lower borrowing costs might encourage buyers who were previously hesitant due to higher interest rates.
• Mixed Market Signals:
• Economic Concerns: While lower rates can stimulate spending, they may also signal economic weakness, which could offset increased demand.
• Investor Behavior: Rate cuts can influence investment strategies, potentially affecting luxury goods markets indirectly.

3. Market Dynamics Specific to the Turbo S

• Brand Strength and Desirability:
• High Demand: The Porsche 911 Turbo S is a highly sought-after model, known for its performance and exclusivity.
• Value Retention: Historically, the Turbo S holds its value well due to limited production numbers and strong brand reputation.
• Supply Chain and Production Factors:
• New Vehicle Availability: Any production delays or limited availability of new models can keep CPO prices stable or even drive them up.
• Technological Advances: Introduction of new technology in upcoming models may affect the desirability and pricing of older models.

4. Other Economic Factors

• Inflation and Currency Fluctuations:
• Purchasing Power: Inflation can erode consumer purchasing power, affecting their ability to buy luxury vehicles.
• Import Costs: Currency fluctuations can impact the price of imported cars and parts, influencing CPO pricing.
• Consumer Confidence:
• Market Sentiment: Overall confidence in the economy affects consumer willingness to make significant purchases.
• Employment Rates: Job security plays a role in consumers’ decisions to invest in high-value items like luxury cars.

Potential Outcomes

• Price Softening:
• Sellers May Lower Prices: To attract buyers in a cautious market, sellers might reduce asking prices.
• Negotiation Opportunities: Buyers may have more leverage to negotiate better deals.
• Price Stability or Increase:
• Sustained Demand: The Turbo S’s desirability may keep prices stable despite economic headwinds.
• Limited Supply: If supply remains tight due to production factors, prices may hold or even increase.

Conclusion

While economic indicators suggest a potential cooling of prices in the CPO market for the Porsche 911 Turbo S, the actual impact depends on a complex interplay of factors:

• Economic Climate: A slowing economy could reduce demand, leading to softer prices.
• Interest Rates: Lower financing costs might stimulate demand, counteracting economic cooling.
• Model Specifics: The Turbo S’s strong brand value and limited supply may cushion it against significant price drops.”

Possible Reasons for More Turbo S Listings Despite Lower Production Numbers

“ 1. Ownership Turnover Rates
• Higher Turnover Among Turbo S Owners: Owners of the Turbo S may be more inclined to sell or trade in their vehicles sooner than Carrera 4 GTS owners. This could be due to a desire to upgrade to the latest model, a change in personal circumstances, or the pursuit of the newest technology and performance enhancements.
• Longer Retention of GTS Models: Carrera 4 GTS owners might keep their cars longer because of the model’s balance of performance and practicality, resulting in fewer units entering the used market.
2. Financial Considerations
• Higher Operating Costs: The Turbo S has higher maintenance, insurance, and running costs compared to the Carrera 4 GTS. Some owners may decide to sell their Turbo S to reduce expenses, increasing the number of used models available.
• Depreciation Factors: The Turbo S has a higher initial price, and owners might sell earlier to mitigate depreciation losses, especially if they anticipate market softening.
3. Market Demand Dynamics
• Niche Market for Turbo S: The Turbo S appeals to a specific segment of buyers who prioritize ultimate performance and are willing to pay a premium. This narrower market can lead to more unsold units being listed for longer periods.
• GTS Demand Exceeds Supply: The Carrera 4 GTS may have higher demand relative to its availability, leading to quicker sales and fewer listings at any given time.
4. Leasing Patterns
• Lease Returns: A significant number of Turbo S models may have been leased rather than purchased outright. As these leases expire, more Turbo S vehicles enter the CPO market simultaneously.
• Ownership Preferences: GTS buyers might be more inclined to purchase rather than lease, resulting in fewer GTS models returning to the market in the short term.
5. Collector Behavior and Speculation
• Investment Sales: Some buyers purchase the Turbo S as a collectible or investment vehicle. They might sell when they believe the market is favorable, increasing the number of listings.
• GTS as a Keeper: The Carrera 4 GTS might be viewed as a long-term keeper due to its well-rounded nature, leading to fewer being sold.
6. Model Lifecycle and Updates
• New Model Releases: The release of a new Turbo S generation or special editions can prompt current owners to sell their existing models to acquire the latest version.
• Technological Advancements: Rapid advancements in technology and performance in the Turbo S lineup might encourage more frequent turnovers.
7. Economic Factors
• Asset Liquidation in Economic Downturns: Owners of higher-value assets like the Turbo S might be more inclined to liquidate during economic uncertainty, increasing supply in the used market.
• Affordability Considerations: The higher cost of the Turbo S may limit the pool of potential buyers, leading to longer listing times and a higher number of available units.
8. Visibility on Listing Platforms
• Dealer Listings: Dealers may prioritize listing Turbo S models due to their higher profit margins, making them more visible on platforms like cars.com.
• Marketing Strategies: Enhanced marketing efforts for the Turbo S could result in more prominent listings.
9. Regional Variations
• Geographic Distribution: The availability of models can vary by region. Certain areas might have a higher concentration of Turbo S models due to local market preferences or dealership allocations.
10. Data Snapshot Timing
• Temporal Fluctuations: The number of listings can fluctuate based on the time of year, economic conditions, and market cycles. A snapshot at a particular time might not represent long-term trends.

Conclusion

The presence of more Porsche 911 Turbo S models than Carrera 4 GTS models on cars.com, despite the Turbo S’s limited production, can be attributed to a combination of factors:

• Higher Ownership Turnover: Turbo S owners may sell their cars more frequently due to financial considerations, desire for the latest model, or higher operating costs.
• Market Dynamics: The niche market for high-end models like the Turbo S can result in longer listing times and more available units at any given time.
• Leasing and Financial Strategies: Lease expirations and investment sales can increase the number of Turbo S models entering the used market simultaneously.
• Retention of GTS Models: Owners of the Carrera 4 GTS may hold onto their vehicles longer due to their satisfaction with the model’s performance and practicality balance.

Your observation highlights an important aspect of the luxury car market: availability on listing platforms doesn’t always directly correlate with production numbers or overall desirability. Instead, it reflects the complex interplay of ownership behaviors, market demand, economic factors, and strategic considerations unique to each model.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I appreciate the opportunity to provide a more accurate and thoughtful explanation, and I hope this revised answer clarifies why there might be more Turbo S models available in the CPO market despite their limited production.“

On ADMs:

“The Porsche 911 (992) Turbo S is a highly sought-after model, and due to its high demand and limited availability, some dealerships may apply an Additional Dealer Markup (ADM) over the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP). The average ADM for a new Turbo S can vary significantly based on several factors:

1. **Geographic Location:**
- In areas with a higher concentration of affluent buyers or fewer dealerships, markups tend to be higher.
- Urban dealerships might have higher ADMs compared to those in less populated regions.

2. **Market Demand:**
- During periods of high demand or limited production runs, ADMs can increase.
- New model releases or special editions often see higher markups.

3. **Dealership Policies:**
- Some dealerships have a policy of selling at MSRP without additional markups to foster customer loyalty.
- Others may add significant markups to maximize profit on limited inventory.

**Average ADM Estimates:**

- **Typical Range:** ADMs for the 992 Turbo S often range from **$10,000 to $50,000** above MSRP.
- **Higher Markups:** In extreme cases, especially upon initial release or for special editions, markups can exceed **$50,000**.
- **No Markup Deals:** It's possible to find dealerships offering the car at MSRP, especially if you have a strong relationship with them or if the vehicle has been on the lot for an extended period.

**Recommendations to Navigate ADMs:**

1. **Contact Multiple Dealerships:**
- Reach out to several Porsche dealerships to inquire about their pricing and any additional markups.
- Expanding your search radius can increase your chances of finding better offers.

2. **Leverage Relationships:**
- If you've previously purchased vehicles from a dealership, they may be more inclined to offer you the car at MSRP.
- Mentioning your intent to establish a long-term relationship can be advantageous.

3. **Timing:**
- Dealers may be more willing to negotiate at the end of the month or fiscal quarter to meet sales targets.
- During off-peak seasons, demand may be lower, potentially reducing ADMs.

4. **Stay Informed via Forums:**
- Engage with Porsche enthusiast forums and communities where recent buyers share their purchasing experiences.
- These platforms can provide real-time insights into current market conditions and dealer practices.

5. **Be Prepared to Negotiate:**
- Express your serious intent to purchase and your knowledge of market conditions.
- Be willing to walk away if the markup is excessively high; dealers may reconsider to secure the sale.

6. **Consider Certified Pre-Owned (CPO) Options:**
- CPO vehicles often come with extended warranties and have depreciated from the initial markup.
- This can be a cost-effective alternative without significant compromises.

**Conclusion:**

While ADMs on the Porsche 992 Turbo S can be substantial due to its desirability, being proactive and well-informed can help you navigate these markups. By reaching out to multiple dealerships, leveraging relationships, and staying updated through enthusiast communities, you can increase your chances of securing the vehicle at a more reasonable price.”

 

I would like to add to this RELIABILTY. These Turbos are tanks. You rarely hear of any major issues with these cars.