chance6

Ummm....

MODS?

daveo4porsche

zero mods - wife's vehicle.

daveo4porsche

it's baaaaaack! will see what next steps are and report.

daveo4porsche

well after much diagnosis here is what we have learned…

• this code is not a "high" voltage warning it's a "any" voltage warning - low or high
  • this is according to PCNA technical support after consulting Porsche Germany
  • it's a voltage has deviated from expected "norms"…
• porsche feels in my case it's a low voltage
• since it's been raining in california car did not get driven a lot
• CEL didn't show up while on trickle charger - but once I drove car a few times in 10 days but didn't trickle charge it CEL pop'd again
• porsche originally advised if car is "not driven" a lot, trickle charging is required - and here use "this one"…not the exact same CTEK one you're using where the only difference is our sticker on the outside of the unit.
  • porsche determined officially "you are not driving the car long enough between usages" - we advise customer to use trickle charger given "low usage" - this was their official position - the car should not be expected to "behave" in due to infrequent usage and short duration trips
  • wife is a bit miffed at this "official" position
  • I see both sides of this coin - porsche is not incorrect but honestly I used to have cars that can sit for weeks with out battery dying
  • but I see their point
  • they were grasping at straws IMHO
  • I think porsche can do better here - and ultimately we found a problem - read on…
  • porsche was also able to reconstruct a _LOT_ of my usage of the car from the logs - I mean a lot - privacy invasion level of "a lot" - basically they looked at usage between march and june 1st - and said you've driven the car "x" times - and out of x times only 2 of those driving sessions were "long enough" to replenish the battery - "customer is driving the car too infrequently and with out enough duration for proper battery maintenance" - official "word" from Porsche…
    • wow - they have access to a lot of detail...wow.
• porsche agreed as part of this investigation to replace the 12V battery (since it's clearly been "stressed" as part of this whole affair)
  • dealer actually had one in stock and grabbed it for me while they waited for battery replacement approval
• during battery swap dealer performed a thorough check of all systems "post" battery swap including a "load test" for several hours to monitor the car's usage and behaviors post battery swap and recoding/setup/configuration
• during the load test they "saw" a vampire load on the new battery - frequent like a heart beat - pattern and frequency was consistent with another 911 Turbo they service a few months ago
• this sort of vampire load is from a module that among other things provides "ping" services to the key-FOB's - car is attempting to ping the key-FOB's even when it's suppose to be "asleep" and not doing that sort of thing
• this is not how this module is supposed to behave - replace this module (easy and fast warranty call to PCNA) once data was presented
• preform same load test with new module (requiring I deliver the 2nd key-FOB for pairing)
• and volia no more vampire load!!! the load test shows the car is "asleep" and using NO POWER
• car will be ready today and I can pick it up after it's ready and I can get by to the dealership
• dealer and my service guy are fairly confident we might actually found "root cause" - and I agree

being a weekend car and convertible this car is not driven much - so when it was driven it was sometimes a short duration - not enough to replenish the battery - couple that with a vampire load and the car was having trouble maintaining the 12V battery system - the trickle charger "mitigated" the problem and "hid" it - but honestly the trickle charger should not be required even for "short" trip usage - but the CEL was "accurate" in that there was a battery voltage problem - but rather than being too high battery had fallen too low and the car was crying for help…

big shout out to my service manager for pushing to get this resolved - it took too long but I do not blame him for that - PCNA I feel dragged their feet on this one after escalation - honestly I've been with out the car since this 2nd CEL and that sucks, but I'm very optimistic it's coming back to me with a resolved issue - and should offer reliable service from this point forward.

interesting (to me at least) facts that correlate to this being a vampire load issue causing the CEL

• car died while in the garage but not on a trickle charger during december 2022 while we were away for 2 weeks - I mean no big deal, but it should survive 2 weeks of not being driven
  • as result of that I purchased and began using trickle charger
• trickle charger kept the CEL from happening, but the car still had the vampire load - when I stopped using the trickle charger the CEL appeared with in 7 days and less than 5 driving session
• I use one key-FOB as the main key - and the other kept in a safe place and rarely used - I'm on my 3rd coin battery for the main-key-FOB in less than 14 months - my other porsche key-FOB's do not consume battery at that rate - it is apparenlty because the car is continously pinging the FOB causing the vampire load and draining the coin battery in the FOB
  • service manager confirms this is a "car side issue" - this is _NOT_ becaue the key-FOB is being stored too closely to the vehicle.
  • also really could not be the case because key-FOB is stored in RFID-blocking box when not in use

I will share what I learn from the official service invoice, but I think this will all boil down to a bad factory electronic's module keeping the car "awake" and draining the 12V causing a CEL due to low battery voltage during start when lightly driven vs. daily driving…as opposed to longer duration driving sessions.

fingers crossed but I'm hopeful this is resolved.

daveo4porsche

you win the prize!!!

vampire load causing battery drain - replace factory electronic's module that was misbehaving - expected result is now problem resolved - but it took this long to get there...no one actually knows anything these days - and everything is so complex full diagnostics take hours and no one is willing to approve billing service shop hours to trace all these dam system's integration issues…

eclou

Ah the joys of "technology". The weight savings of the LiON battery is not worth the BS you have to deal with, nor is the finicky battery management system to save fuel consumption. I have a beater 2001 Silverado Z71 truck with 150k miles (with ******* hanging from the rear hitch) on it with a 6 yr old Diehard battery that has a $25 Amazon solar charger plugged in to the cigarette port that gets driven maybe once per month when I take the dogs mountain biking. It starts every damn time. It sits outside in the elements with no protection, no CTEK, no weekly startups. My S1000rr has a Shorei battery that I don't even plug into a tender. It gets ridden once every 3 months. Starts every damn time. Its just not that hard

GT3ZZZ

Google says Battery Charging Output Voltage Too High

daveo4porsche

Porsche Germany disagrees.

Tupper

So how long is “long enough” driving to replenish your battery?

I’m having this weird issue where my 992 ownership was a great experience, but now I’m getting pissed at Porsche because of what others are going through. Maybe these companies just need to back off on all the electronics?

I’m actually scared to buy a Porsche again, reading this forum

daveo4porsche

they said at least 20 minutes - but that was before we identified the electronic's module that was replaced - I'm going to conduct a "test" for the new few weeks - "no trickle charger" and "normal" driving see if things are better…

I think the "problem" is a combination of:

• electronics and complexity of so many systems
• the LiON batteries that are "high power" & "low capacity" - 60 amp hours is the capacity of a stock/factory 911 TurboS 992 12V battery
• narrow parameters in these system for showing a CEL (this issue caused my 2021 Cayenne Hybrid to have unnecessary CEL's ultimately fixed in software fleet wide)

This issue with random CEL is multiple dimensional:

• technically speaking it requires a dealer visit since there is no diagnostic display of codes provided by Porsche (I'm ignoring using your own "reader" as a solution because most people can't/won't do that)
• there is no way to tell a CEL you can ignore from a CEL you can safely defer diagnosis from porsche's in car systems - a CEL means a dealer visit
• you can't sell a vehicle with CEL problems because
  • it could/will freak out a buyer
  • will show up in the service history - and if "unresolved" is a vehicle sale disclosure issue unless you wanna be sued by your buyer after the fact
  • vehicle can't pass various required registration inspections if there are CEL's in memory that are unresolved - so if a CEL is random and pop's close enough to inspection you're screwed on getting various sale transfer documents

so for the price of what we all paid for one of these vehicles I demand as a customer that CEL's are taken seriously and diagnosed and resolved because for them not to do so devalues the vehicle - and if serious enough makes the asset illiquid and unsellable.

ultimately my CEL I believe has shaken out as:

• an issue that would be resolved/hidden by a trickle charger - it's a solution but not an ideal one - but an "acceptable" work around - for home use
  • I don't like this solution because it means I can't travel away from home with the vehicle as the 12V was actually being draining and may strand me on the road
  • now if I'm traveling away from home - I'm driving the car for longer periods and therefore charging the 12V battery to compensate for any undiagnosed vampire drain
• we now know likely cause of the 12V dropping low enough to need a jump start in Dec. 2022 - the module's vampire drain on the vehicle while not in use
• while not a critical CEL - it was a cry for help for a subtle/complex and well hidden problem with a faulty component

My wife (technically it's her car - it is registered solely in her name) was fussy with the original "official" position of Porsche being "keep it on a trickle charger" - she was like - "you mean we're the only Porsche owner's that don't drive their 911's a lot?". And she has a point…

for me personally I'm not sure what a tolerable level of non-use should be for a non-driven vehicle before a vendor recommending/requiring a trickle charger is. I'm thinking 2 weeks no driving, no trickle charger should not require a trickle charger to come back and expect the vehicle to not require a jump start. But once you push out beyond 6-8 weeks (non-driven) - I'm more sympathetic to any manufacturer that would recommend/require a 12V trickle charger for vehicle maintenance/health - I'd love other's opinion as to the "expected" time of non-driving before a trickle charger is a reasonable manufacturer "demand"

However if we are going to need trickle chargers - I would love that the vendors perhaps make it less "jury rigged" to keep the 12V charged.

As part of the now-defunct recommendation to use a trickle charger Porsche was adamant that it had to be alligator clamps directly on the 12V battery (something my wife was _NOT_ going to tolerate) - we discussed the passenger side 12V socket and the work around to keep it active and PCNA was not having any of that as their required/recommended trickle charging procedure because "while it does charge the 12V" it keep's other systems alive as well - which they suggested was not the desired outcome. So we want you to trickle charge the battery because "you do not drive the vehicle enough" - but we provide not easy/daily mechanism to do so and will not support you if you don't follow our trickle charge procedures (no work arounds allowed). That was not going to be a tolerable solution IMHO but I do believe would have avoided any further CEL occurrences with the vehicle.

ultimately in my case the CEL was a cry for "help" from the car, but diagnosis of this particular problem was quite complex…the modern cars they are complex…and some problems require you to dig a little deeper.

going forward I'm not trickle charging the car for the next few weeks - I'll drive as "normal" - maybe not enough by Porsche's standards - but if the battery is less depleted from a wonky module perhaps shorter drive session are less of an issue for the car sitting idle…

as an owner my personal threshold of 4+ weeks non-driven for "requiring" trickle charger is acceptable operational best practices going forward - I arrived at 4+ weeks as my best practice threshold based on my engineering background and rudimentary EE awareness - these cars are "online" these days for the porsche app - and there is no such thing as "no 12V demands" these days - there is just the "deep sleep" state where 12V demand has been reduced to the absolute non-zero minimums…but given the lack of capacity-depth on modern vehicle 12V systems there is a capacity limit in terms of available power that I believe can be hit in a matter of weeks before the LiON battery shuts down for it's "safety/longevity" - these cars are never fully "shut off" - and it's impossible for them to do so for at least a few reasons:

• keyless entry & start
• online status for "the app"
• security monitor

4 weeks is my new personal threshold for best practice to trickle charge…or at least make sure you've driven the car "well" for at least 30 minutes…

I'm hoping the car has fewer CEL's going forward and that the diagnosis (with before & after data) of the wonky module before and after module replacement has move the car to be inline with expected design specifications - and the car should be able to bridge 2-3 weeks of non-driving, and even for limited driving not pop a voltage CEL due to vampire loads on the 12V…

we'll see going forward.

daveo4porsche

looping in @Antigravity for their thoughts on factory stock battery capacity vs. aftermarket alternatives…with the misbehaving module causing a drain the factory stock battery lasted less than 2 weeks of non-use before it was dead enough to require a booster to get the frunk to open for a proper jump start…

daveo4porsche

here is the "official" service invoice writeup from the service technician's for my CEL issue - enjoy!

hopefully this helps another owner with a similar problem and could potentially accelerate resolution.

PTS-BRG

I think that Antigravity doesnt make batteries for these new 992's. Something about the complex battery management or something..

daveo4porsche

here is the part - $299 parts cost - seems straight forward…

https://www.pacificmotors.com/auto-p...8aAvrSEALw_wcB

daveo4porsche

spoke with service manager following up on this friday (picking up Taycan for a passenger side CCS chargeport repair - warranty) - they have diagnosed and replaced 4 more 992-907-064-CK parts across 992 911's now that they know what to look for - seems this part could be root cause for a lot of battery "drain" problems that have previously been "unexplainable" since no one knew what to look for - given the frequency with which he's now seeing this issue (not limited to 992 911 turbo's) PCNA is investigating if there is a systemic problem here in the 992 part which would explain a great frequency of battery scenarios across the 992 product family…will be interesting to see how this problem evolves and if it is in fact a generational problem…my turbo S battery (I'm checking voltage) has been rock solid with no real apparent drain now that this part has been replaced.

I'm keeping the vehicle _OFF_ the trickle charger for "testing" to see if my TurboS now behaves itself with improved electronics

I can not say for sure if the factory part failed and the new part is not broken - or if the parts develop faults and will eventually behave just like the original factory part that was replaced - i.e. I don't know if the original part was broken, or the new part is a new version with a 'fix', or if the current replacement part will develope the same fault given enough time & usage.

food for thought - I don't have all the details.